After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

[bradtem]

Unfortunately, that's not adequate compensation. I didn't buy FSD. I bought a car with the promise that it would eventually be able to drive itself. FSD was only 5% of the cost of that car. The other 95% of that cost — which, might I add, is four times as much as I've ever paid for any previous car — was worth it only because of that promise.

So no, refunding FSD isn't even remotely good enough if Tesla doesn't eventually pull it off. I want my money back on the car.

On the other hand I also understand that it is an iterative process, and as long as Tesla was continuing to make progress and demonstrating progress and upgrading hardware as needed to make it possible for me to enjoy that progress, I was happy. Unfortunately...



That's where I have a problem with Tesla. What I want is a lawsuit seeking to compel Tesla to perform all hardware upgrades required for our cars to use FSD Beta. If that means they have to give us MCU2, then they have to give us MCU2. That promise to replace hardware as needed to make it capable of self-driving was explicit, and Tesla is failing to live up to that agreement, and has been for more than two years.

I think we've been patient enough.

Interesting. Well, there are obviously some people who feel as you. And others who don't feel that way at all -- they bought the car to be their car, never expecting more. (This includes the 87% of Tesla buyers in the USA today who don't purchase FSD and just buy the car.) So the question will be, how much can people in the former class convince the court that they bought this car based on statements from Tesla saying it would do FSD and soon (mixed with statements about how they could not say when it would happen) and put prime focus on the former, and as such were misled.

But then we get the next problem for this class. Right now a lot of used Teslas are selling for more than people paid for them new! So getting Tesla to refund the price of your car that you paid doesn't get you anything. If they refund it with depreciation you would be foolish to take the offer. Right now Tesla can easily offer any member of the class to buy back their car for a typical used car value based on historical values that you might have expected. Because you are certainly never going to make the case you got no value from the car, as a car. Just that you might have bought a cheaper car.

Now this crazy period where used Teslas sell for more than new ones won't last for too much longer, but it's an easy way out.

 

[Knightshade]

So the question will be, how much can people in the former class convince the court that they bought this car based on statements from Tesla saying it would do FSD and soon (mixed with statements about how they could not say when it would happen) and put prime focus on the former, and as such were misled.

But then we get the next problem for this class. Right now a lot of used Teslas are selling for more than people paid for them new! So getting Tesla to refund the price of your car that you paid doesn't get you anything. If they refund it with depreciation you would be foolish to take the offer. Right now Tesla can easily offer any member of the class to buy back their car for a typical used car value based on historical values that you might have expected. Because you are certainly never going to make the case you got no value from the car, as a car. Just that you might have bought a cheaper car.

Now this crazy period where used Teslas sell for more than new ones won't last for too much longer, but it's an easy way out.

BTW, here's a follow up on the suit filed from a guy who claimed many of the things folks are claiming here about being mislead.

The magistrate considering it recommended most claims be thrown out (and explains why- including the fact the actual purchase contract explicitly disclaims most of the stuff such folks claim they 'relied' on but they signed that contract anyway.

Magistrate Judge To Tesla Buyer Suckered Into Paying Extra For ‘Full Self-Driving’ That Isn’t Full Self-Driving: Next Time Read The Fine Print

For many years now, Tesla has referred to its various driver assistance tools as “full self-driving” and then acted shocked and surprised when people point out that it’s nowhere n…

www.techdirt.com

The contract explicitly states, “Prior agreements, oral statements, negotiations, communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement.”

Anyway, to perhaps the shock of some here- but not me- the only claims the magistrate suggested had any merit at all were.... the specific ones around the "coming by end of year" promises actually made as part of the purchase process that Tesla missed the dates on.

The same ones I've said for a couple of years now were the only ones a court would find much merit in.


Apparently soon after the magistrate basically said most of the guys original claims were without merit the lawsuit was settled and closed. Being he was pro se I imagine he only then realized how garbage the case was and took a coupon for some free supercharging or something to go away.

 

[gearchruncher]

And others who don't feel that way at all -- they bought the car to be their car, never expecting more. (This includes the 87% of Tesla buyers in the USA today who don't purchase FSD and just buy the car.)

The car was specifically advertised as having all hardware needed, even if you didn't buy FSD. Also, FSD was specifically advertised as something you could add later (albeit at an unknown price). Just because you didn't buy FSD when you bought the car doesn't say anything about why you bought the car. When I bought my car in 2016 I put my FSD money in Tesla stock, and have a lot more than if I had "bought" FSD- but that doesn't mean part of my purchase wasn't tied to eventually buying functional, as advertised self driving.

Right now a lot of used Teslas are selling for more than people paid for them new! So getting Tesla to refund the price of your car that you paid doesn't get you anything. If they refund it with depreciation you would be foolish to take the offer.

Damages don't work this way. This is like saying that if your house burns down, all the insurance company owes you is what you bought the house for, not what it costs to replace. I can't tell you I'll give you 50% interest on your money for a year, and then when I don't pay say that your only damages are your principal. Damages are about getting you to where you would have been had the contract played out.

So now, we have to ask, how much would a Tesla have been worth if what they promised was coming actually occurred? This could be very hard. However, we do have one reference we can draw on:

"The cars currently being produced…are capable of full self-driving,” said Musk. “Buying a car today is an investment into the future. I think the most profound thing is that if you buy a Tesla today, I believe you are buying an appreciating asset - not a depreciating asset.”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1262530589506273280

So maybe we could just go with that...

 

[Knightshade]

The car was specifically advertised as having all hardware needed, even if you didn't buy FSD.

Yes- and if you buy FSD you get that

That's why folks who bought FSD got HW3 for free for example- to keep that promise even when they realized more HW was needed. Same as the HW2.0 camera upgrades some have gotten for free.

Also, FSD was specifically advertised as something you could add later

Which is legally irrelevant-- both because you STILL CAN (and get any needed HW upgrade free) and because a company isn't required to sell a thing forever just because they once did.

Go try buying a Windows 7 upgrade license from Dell on a 14 year old Vista PC they promised you was upgradable to Win7- they don't sell it anymore, and you'd be laughed out of court trying to sue over it.

Just because you didn't buy FSD when you bought the car doesn't say anything about why you bought the car.

Which of course works in both directions-- hence why "I want a full car refund because I only bought it for FSD" is such a heavy lift to prove in court.

Damages don't work this way. This is like saying that if your house burns down, all the insurance company owes you is what you bought the house for, not what it costs to replace.

If you don't have replacement coverage- that might well be true (or at least they might owe less than replacement cost)-- ditto for the things IN the house.

Not every policy does include replacement value. Some include MORE than replacement value.

The actual contract matters.

I can't tell you I'll give you 50% interest on your money for a year, and then when I don't pay say that your only damages are your principal. Damages are about getting you to where you would have been had the contract played out.

Which is where all FSD buyers are today--- waiting for the promised feature Tesla made clear had no specific delivery date.

The one exception, again, is the small group of folks who bought during the "by end of year" period.

 

[dbldwn02]

So, once FSD goes wide, my 2017MS75D will be worth KBB of $70k PLUS $100k! Oh boy oh boy oh boy! And it'll do it on MCU1, because FSD works on all hardware after 2016! Yay!

Really curious what the take rate is at $15k, now. 2-5%?

 

[EVNow]

So, once FSD goes wide, my 2017MS75D will be worth KBB of $70k PLUS $100k! Oh boy oh boy oh boy! And it'll do it on MCU1, because FSD works on all hardware after 2016! Yay!

Really curious what the take rate is at $15k, now. 2-5%?

If and when a car can drive autonomously, what do you think will be it’s value ?

 

[dbldwn02]

If and when a car can drive autonomously, what do you think will be it’s value ?

Market decides value...not me...not Elon.

 

[Dan D.]

If and when a car can drive autonomously, what do you think will be it’s value ?

¥250,000 is my guess.

 

[Knightshade]

So, once FSD goes wide, my 2017MS75D will be worth KBB of $70k PLUS $100k! Oh boy oh boy oh boy! And it'll do it on MCU1, because FSD works on all hardware after 2016! Yay!

Really curious what the take rate is at $15k, now. 2-5%?

The last price hike (10k to 12k) had basically NO impact on take rate, so it's unclear if this one will either.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1571229377089740802

and

https://www.patreon.com/posts/69513620

In NA it has remained around 15% for 4 quarters.- so no impact on the 10->12k bump

Likewise globally it has been averaging 8% for 4 quarters in a row so again no real impact from last price change.

We have no data yet of course on if 12k->15k matters to anyone.

 

[bradtem]

The last price hike (10k to 12k) had basically NO impact on take rate, so it's unclear if this one will either.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1571229377089740802

and

https://www.patreon.com/posts/69513620

In NA it has remained around 15% for 4 quarters.- so no impact on the 10->12k bump

Likewise globally it has been averaging 8% for 4 quarters in a row so again no real impact from last price change.

We have no data yet of course on if 12k->15k matters to anyone.

The $15k price would not be in this data. If there is no drop from $10K to $15K, then Tesla certainly was smart to bump the price. I wonder about those who are buying. Are they people who are seeing the videos and mistakenly imagining they mean it's almost here?

 

[Knightshade]

The $15k price would not be in this data.

Which is probably why I literally pointed that out in the post you quoted

I did mention there was no drop when the price went from 10k to 12k though, which we've got lots of data on in there.


The other important thing to note is this chart is only people who are buying at time of vehicle purchase, it does not capture those who buy FSD post-delivery... and it does not include anybody accessing FSD via subscription (which Tesla would probably prefer people do long term anyway) so total take rate is higher than suggested in the chart- though we have no data to conclude if it's significantly higher or not.


Tesla of course does have all the data- so you've pretty much got two options for how to read price bumps:

Tesla has some data that tells them this is a good idea
or
Tesla is bad at making money and is doing something the data tells them is a bad idea


Quarterly results seem to suggest that second one isn't true of course.

 

[2101Guy]

What was the take rate in 2020 compared to now?

I’ll wait

 

[Knightshade]

What was the take rate in 2020 compared to now?

I’ll wait

Why are you waiting? The answer is literally 3 posts above your question

 

[Barklikeadog]

Which is probably why I literally pointed that out in the post you quoted

I did mention there was no drop when the price went from 10k to 12k though, which we've got lots of data on in there.


The other important thing to note is this chart is only people who are buying at time of vehicle purchase, it does not capture those who buy FSD post-delivery... and it does not include anybody accessing FSD via subscription (which Tesla would probably prefer people do long term anyway) so total take rate is higher than suggested in the chart- though we have no data to conclude if it's significantly higher or not.


Tesla of course does have all the data- so you've pretty much got two options for how to read price bumps:

Tesla has some data that tells them this is a good idea
or
Tesla is bad at making money and is doing something the data tells them is a bad idea


Quarterly results seem to suggest that second one isn't true of course.

I need to start giving out citations for "literally" abuse

 

[Knightshade]

I need to start giving out citations for "literally" abuse

Except in this case it's "literally" true.

Both refer to cases where I literally said the thing they then asked to know right after I had already told it to them.

People are literally terrible at reading posts fully before replying to them and asking questions the very post already answered

 

[Barklikeadog]

Except in this case it's "literally" true.

Both refer to cases where I literally said the thing they then asked to know right after I had already told it to them.

People are literally terrible at reading posts fully before replying to them and asking questions the very post already answered

"Which is probably why I literally pointed that out in the post you quoted"

Which is probably why I pointed that out in the post you quoted

Go with number 2

 

[Maxpilot]

I need to start giving out citations for "literally" abuse

The word I hate worse is the made up word "prolly" instead of spelling out probably. I guess I'm getting old.

 

[Barklikeadog]

The word I hate worse is the made up word "prolly" instead of spelling out probably. I guess I'm getting old.

I've noticed that 'democracy' has become a 'literally'. Losing all meaning and thrown around by people who slept through their civics courses.
'Fascism/ist' is quickly catching up with 'democracy'.

When The Word “Literally” Is Literally Misused

Five years ago, today, I started this Mary’s Secretary blog; I published my first blog post ever on September 15th (Our Lady of Seven Sorrows Feast day). Which, was my very own feast day in C…

maryssecretary.com

 

[2101Guy]

“A little over two years ago, about 53% of all Tesla buyers drove home in a vehicle with FSD. As of the end of Q4, that number had dropped to just 14%. FSD opt-in has dropped continuously over the past nine quarters.”

 

[2101Guy]

And with teslas most popular model, the model 3

“Just 6% of Model 3 buyers were taking FSD”