Angry about HPWC replacement cost

[Ingineer]

1. The Drive Unit problems are probably not that big of a worry, as most of the issues are just noisy DU's due to very wide manufacturing and assembly tolerances. The drive units are also plentiful and cheap used, because Tesla is hostile to owners of salvage(and non-salvage for that matter) cars.
2. Working on the Model S is pretty easy for people experienced in that field. The big snag is getting parts, and access to firmware/diagnostic menu. This will change in time, as I can't see this monopoly lasting long.
3. The vampire load is due to connectivity/BMS. It doesn't have to be that way(Rav4 EV isn't), but it's a decision Tesla has made most likely due to information gathering(the car uploads the logs every couple of weeks).

These are worries because to me the future is unknown and they are unsolved.

Noise? I don't know, when I read the reports I see a lot of dead drives with cars needing towing. Noise is unacceptable too in any event. I can understand a 250k mile unit maybe being a little noisy, but the expectation is that this just shouldn't happen. Elon has thrown around his "Million mile" drivetrain thing more than once, and most recently during the Ludicrous announcement, I might add. Drive unit failures for other EV makes don't seem to be statistically relevant. (except for those w/ Tesla DT's!) Even on systems as complex as the Prius and the Volt with all the extra mechanical systems, they seem solid.

Yes, I've been able to get into my car easily. It's built using methods common to other cars. But ALL those other cars also have manuals! How do you know it will change in time? Yes, the monopoly could even end with Tesla going under, then still no parts! Not a comfort to me!

I know exactly what's causing the Vampire load, and it isn't the logging. That's done by a separate system (The Gateway). The RAV4 EV has almost the same gateway and almost identical BMS. What it doesn't have is the big touchscreen that is kept constantly powered to some degree all the time. Tablets using the Tegra3 can idle on tiny internal Lithium-Polymer cells, why can't Tesla's? (And I know the answer to this too, which is why I'm worried)

Don't take this as Tesla bashing. I support Tesla fully, but there are definitely areas needing improvements!

 

[omarsultan]

It is no secret that Tesla's HPWC, and UMC are not engineered well enough to run at their full capacity, 20kw, amd 10kw, respectively.

I rarely use my UMC, but I do use my HPWC every day, running at 80A for the last two years with no issues, so that statement seems awfully broad.

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I don't know, when I read the reports I see a lot of dead drives with cars needing towing.

Also seems a bit broad--it seems there are very few cases of actual drive unit failures, and if a Tesla needs towing, its more likely because the 12V battery dies. I have had a 12V go south on me, but the car was kind enough to warn me a few days ahead of time and a ranger showed up to do a swap with no drama. Since almost all cars are still under warranty, I am not sure you will see Tesla devote resources to building out a "parts department" or addressing the 12V issue for a while. On a happy note, as has been posted elsewhere on this site, the the price of parts seems to be coming down significantly.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Tablets using the Tegra3 can idle on tiny internal Lithium-Polymer cells, why can't Tesla's? (And I know the answer to this too, which is why I'm worried)

Well don't hold back now! What is your answer to the above and why are you worried?

 

[Ingineer]

I rarely use my UMC, but I do use my HPWC every day, running at 80A for the last two years with no issues, so that statement seems awfully broad.

Just because it hasn't failed yet doesn't mean it's well engineered. Look a the loss alone. The extra money you are paying to your utility company to add heat to the garage could have been spent on better engineering. You are also here in NorCal where extra heat is maybe even welcome. Checkout the guys with HPWC's in Arizona or Texas and ask them if they can even touch the thing on the outside after an 80A session. Imagine how hot the inside is!

Also seems a bit broad--it seems there are very few cases of actual drive unit failures, and if a Tesla needs towing, its more likely because the 12V battery dies. I have had a 12V go south on me, but the car was kind enough to warn me a few days ahead of time and a ranger showed up to do a swap with no drama. Since almost all cars are still under warranty, I am not sure you will see Tesla devote resources to building out a "parts department" or addressing the 12V issue for a while. On a happy note, as has been posted elsewhere on this site, the the price of parts seems to be coming down significantly.

Bread is that neither of the things should be happening in cars this young in statistically significant numbers! If they were properly constructed to even any other major automakers standard, this would not be happening. I expect my 12v battery to go like clockwork in about 16 months, as it's being abused after all. I assume they are going to fix this at some point in software to reduce the standby load. If they don't, they will probably get nailed with a class-action and it will cost them way more than hiring more engineers to fix the problem in the first place. If my DU goes, I'm going to be livid. What's more, it worries me that it may happen at an inopportune time, which isn't a good feeling to have in the back of your mind. Mind you, I *love* my Model S, It's the best car I've ever owned. I just want it to be even better; I want Tesla to be world-class and stay world-class so the can fulfill their mission and I can buy more cars from them in the future. Even GM can build an EV that doesn't lose it's gearbox or inverter this often. I don't want Tesla to just catch up to GM's quality, I want it to surpass Toyota's! The cool thing is that they are almost there, and building en EV is overall way less complex mechanically. Let alone the ICE, have you ever taken an automatic transmission apart? Why after ~3 years are Tesla's simple one speed gear reduction units still wearing out?

Elon is right, with modern techniques, it should be possible to build an EV DU that does a million miles without incident. They've replaced enough DU's now to be able to perform proper failure mode analysis on the system. This should have been enough time to enable them to put the changes into production that fix the problem once and for all. I waited a long time to get my MS, one reason was because I thought by now these issues would be dead and buried. Since I've got my MS, I've counted 8 DU failures reported here on cars with under 2500 miles. For every report here that we hear about, There's probably at least 4x that we don't. Only a small percentage of MS owners participate here. Broad enough?

 

[AmpedRealtor]

It is no secret that Tesla's HPWC, and UMC are not engineered well enough to run at their full capacity, 20kw, amd 10kw, respectively. I have said this from the very beginning. You would think that such a crucial part of the cars functionality would be more reliable, and better engineered, but it's not. I have yet to have a UMC last a year(have been through 7 or 8). I don't see that changing, because the fixes have been patches that don't fully address the real issues. It's really painful and sad to watch.

With respect, I've had only two issues with my HPWC and each time it was the same problem - the button on the handle/nozzle was activating on its own, thereby disconnecting my car. My 2nd replacement was a "C" revision of that part which had a new button design. Since then, I've had no issues with my HPWC at 80A other than heat. My heat issues are particular to where I live. During the summer months, when it is above 105 most days and over 110 on some days, it is difficult to hold the handle due to heat after charging at 80A for some time. Heat is additive. During the fall and spring, when temps are in the 80s, I have no heat issues with the HPWC. It's still quite warm, but nowhere near as hot as it gets in the summer.

 

[Ingineer]

Well don't hold back now! What is your answer to the above and why are you worried?

The center display (MCU in Tesla's parlance) is an egregious offender. I haven't yet had the time to properly instrument my car, but a few simple experiments have yielded enough data to convince me of this.

So the only logical conclusion I can make is:

1. Tesla engineering is stretched to the limits and wants to fix this issue, but doesn't have the resources.

-or-

2. Tesla management doesn't care about this issue, so hasn't directed any engineering resources at the problem.

Question is, are they going to do it before everyone's 4-year warranty runs out? Little things like this, and especially the DU problem, could be the death by a thousand cuts of Tesla. You know some of the owners out there with 3 or more DU failures are pissed. What happens if someone brings a class action? Something like that could really take a hit on sales and the stock value. It's simple; I want Tesla to fulfill it's mission, and I see these issues as dangerous to that mission.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

The center display (MCU in Tesla's parlance) is an egregious offender. I haven't yet had the time to properly instrument my car, but a few simple experiments have yielded enough data to convince me of this.

So the only logical conclusion I can make is:

1. Tesla engineering is stretched to the limits and wants to fix this issue, but doesn't have the resources.

-or-

2. Tesla management doesn't care about this issue, so hasn't directed any engineering resources at the problem.

Question is, are they going to do it before everyone's 4-year warranty runs out? Little things like this, and especially the DU problem, could be the death by a thousand cuts of Tesla. You know some of the owners out there with 3 or more DU failures are pissed. What happens if someone brings a class action? Something like that could really take a hit on sales and the stock value. It's simple; I want Tesla to fulfill it's mission, and I see these issues as dangerous to that mission.

Thank you for providing the above, useful information. This gives me hope that it is a solvable problem, it just needs to be taken seriously. I would encourage folks to ask Tesla to tame the vampire:

Contact | Tesla Motors

 

[Ingineer]

With respect, I've had only two issues with my HPWC and each time it was the same problem - the button on the handle/nozzle was activating on its own, thereby disconnecting my car. My 2nd replacement was a "C" revision of that part which had a new button design. Since then, I've had no issues with my HPWC at 80A other than heat. My heat issues are particular to where I live. During the summer months, when it is above 105 most days and over 110 on some days, it is difficult to hold the handle due to heat after charging at 80A for some time. Heat is additive. During the fall and spring, when temps are in the 80s, I have no heat issues with the HPWC. It's still quite warm, but nowhere near as hot as it gets in the summer.

My point is that there shouldn't be that much heat in the first place. I would have paid 2X the cost of the HPWC to get it with more copper and better engineering. The lack of coil power management in the firmware is seriously novice. I'd fix this for Tesla for free. (and in fact, I already have in my unit) I spent less than a day with my unit, and I've improved the efficiency by around 40%. Note that when it's on their dime, (superchargers) they are more careful about this.

 

[omarsultan]

Just because it hasn't failed yet doesn't mean it's well engineered. Look a the loss alone. The extra money you are paying to your utility company to add heat to the garage could have been spent on better engineering. You are also here in NorCal where extra heat is maybe even welcome. Checkout the guys with HPWC's in Arizona or Texas and ask them if they can even touch the thing on the outside after an 80A session. Imagine how hot the inside is!

Going to respectfully disagree with you here. Just because its warm (hot, whatever) does not mean its poorly engineered. As an engineer you know every project has a design envelope that involves things like costs, duty cycle, etc and engineering beyond the envelope is not always desirable--for instance, it may add unnecessary cost or provide unneeded longevity (for example, I don't need an iPhone designed to last 10 years as it will be technically obsolete long before that).

Remember, the original price on the HPWC was $1,200 plus another $1,500 for dual chargers, so I am sure value engineering was a concern--while you might be willing to pay another $1,200 I am not sure how many other folks will to d that as long the the HPWC operates as designed. Having said that, I would fully expect HPWC 2.0 to be improved on a number of fronts as Tesla now has a few years of operational data under its collective belt.

BTW, I live in the part of NorCal that regularly sees triple digit temps in the summer, so those guys and gals in AZ and TX got nothing on me.

 

[ohmman]

BTW, I live in the part of NorCal that regularly sees triple digit temps in the summer, so those guys and gals in AZ and TX got nothing on me.

Having moved from Texas to NorCal, I can tell you that triple digits here doesn't generally equal triple digits there. Mainly, my garage there stayed in the triple digits at night, despite being ventilated. Depending on where you live in NorCal, you are less likely to see midnight temperatures in the mid-90s than in Texas, which is the summertime norm.

 

[Ingineer]

Going to respectfully disagree with you here.

That's fine. Yes I understand the cost issue, but some of it, such as the lack of coil power control would not have added any hardware costs. Maybe a few embedded programming man-hours. What's the excuse for leaving the coil at full power for no good reason?

 

[omarsultan]

I'll bow down to your EE guru-ness on this, not my area of expertise. On the "a few embedded programming man-hours", my experience is it never ends up being just a few hours. Remember, at the time, Tesla was a much smaller company at the time and programmer or programmer time might simply not have been an option.

Back in the day, I would often have customers tell me: "design a network that will never go down". Inevitably, after seeing the price tag of that kind of design, they would come back and ask what they could accomplish for half that amount of money--and these were Fortune 500 companies which presumably could make the investments if they could justify them. I used to warn my new-hired engineers that customers will ask for unicorn and are only prepared to pay for a plough horse, so show them the former (since its fund to design unicorns) and deliver the latter (since I actually find that more of a challenge).

 

[Ingineer]

PWM on one 1 pin of a micro takes me about 5 minutes. Add in a few hours for testing with the hardware and prove-out. The firmware in an EVSE is really simple, there are only a few states, and only a few inputs.

Also note that according to the sticker on my unit, looks like they recently released revision "E". The ones many people are still getting are "D". This means they have at least done another round of engineering review. Why no coil PWM?

 

[sorka]

Agreed. I don't want to drag this too far off topic, but Tesla really needs to step up, and soon, on these issues if they want to be better than other automakers and continue to hold on to their world-class image.

The 3 biggest things making me uneasy about my MS (and Tesla) are, in order:
1. The drive unit problems. What's going to happen after the warranty?
2. Tesla's failure to give owners basic service info and make parts available for reasonable prices (or at all)!
3. The 12V "Vampire" fiasco. Again, Am I to buy a 12V battery every 18 months and pay for all that wasted electricity?

I have a lot more than those, but those are the biggies. I'll stop now before I get too far OT.

Nobody will have to worry about 1 until their MS is 8 years old.

I too worry about #2.

I've come to just realize that #3 is probably a fact of life. Fortunately, the accessory battery is an off the shelf unit even if it's rare and can be installed by a DIY although it's not as trivial a regular car battery. But it doesn't look any more difficult than doing a Prius.

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I spent less than a day with my unit, and I've improved the efficiency by around 40%.

Can you clarify what you mean by this exactly?

 

[Arvind]

Originally Posted by Ingineer
I spent less than a day with my unit, and I've improved the efficiency by around 40%.
---------


Is there a third party solution for a 240 v 40 amp charger that is more efficient and reliable that can be used on a Tesla or does their proprietary socket preclude that?

 

[DoctorJJ]

My point is that there shouldn't be that much heat in the first place. I would have paid 2X the cost of the HPWC to get it with more copper and better engineering. The lack of coil power management in the firmware is seriously novice. I'd fix this for Tesla for free. (and in fact, I already have in my unit) I spent less than a day with my unit, and I've improved the efficiency by around 40%. Note that when it's on their dime, (superchargers) they are more careful about this.

Would you be willing to start a thread about how you improved the efficiency of your HPWC? Thanks.

 

[Canuck]

Originally Posted by Ingineer
I spent less than a day with my unit, and I've improved the efficiency by around 40%.
---------


Is there a third party solution for a 240 v 40 amp charger that is more efficient and reliable that can be used on a Tesla or does their proprietary socket preclude that?

There's many EVSE makers. Clipper Creek makes good ones. But you have to use the J1772 adapter and you can't pop the charge port door open with the plug, like you can with a UMC or HPWC. Plus, with the new low price of the HPWC it's really the best solution out there for a Tesla.

 

[breser]

Nobody will have to worry about 1 until their MS is 8 years old.

Except for 40 and 60 owners who's warranty isn't unlimited miles. I'd guess there are cars that are fully out of warranty already. Maybe not very many but some.

 

[mknox]

I currently have my HPWC connected temporarily to a 20 amp circuit (charging the car at 16 amps). I am surprised at how warm it gets. Not hot, but very warm when I put my hand on the chrome cover. It seems warmer at the top. There is even a bit of warmth on the cable as it comes out the bottom, but quickly cools down as I slide my hand along it further away from the HPWC. And this is only at 16 amps.

 

[mknox]

My HWPC in in the garage and I had thought about adding (drilling) some holes) on the top sides and the bottom of the charger to allow the heat to escape. I decided to not do that at least until the warranty expires in case the charger fails. Has anyone else considered doing this?

I think the risk of dust and debris getting in outweighs any advantage of letting heat out. Further, I think that heat from the HPWC is dissipated by conduction, not convection anyway.