Another fatal autopilot crash - China

[Tam]

...But what definitely shows again is that AEB really does not work against stationary objects.

AEB should be a safety net, a last ditch automatic effort with no requirement for human input but sadly, the article links to TV news clip and there was no AEB alert sound prior to collision but there were plenty of audio alerts after the collision.

The crumple zone did its job and the cabin looks pretty good from the sides. No tires fell off.

The collision might be a survivable one if the vehicle in front had a low rear bumper. It's a tall truck with sweeping brush assembly in the back, so the lower rear is pretty much hollow.

 

[Stoneymonster]

Usually in the US, when these street sweepers are on the highway, there is a train of trucks behind with signs, it's really hard to miss. It's surprising to me that they just are plodding along in the fast last at 5mph with no other warning. Pretty stupid on that side of things as well. It doesn't take a Tesla on auto-pilot for this to have happened.

 

[rog]

AEB should be a safety net, a last ditch automatic effort with no requirement for human input but sadly, the article links to TV news clip and there was no AEB alert sound prior to collision but there were plenty of audio alerts after the collision.

As others have mentioned, this is the current limitation of the system (well documented). Not surprised that AEB didn't kick in. I'm sure the radar as well as the camera "saw" that street sweeper, but chose to ignore it as it was stationary (at least relative to the car's speed).

 

[byan1232]

I think the problem is that the way Tesla China markets AP is that it is "self-driving", which is why this guy is suing.

 

[jeffro01]

This is getting a bit comical... If some of you are going to overreact and nit pick each and every Tesla accident then it's only fair you post every single accident out there from a non-Tesla automobile...

Jeff

 

[JohnSnowNW]

When someone involved in a dispute states something happened, but specifically refuses to provide evidence (or in this case give access to that evidence) it's often not because they are simply being contrary...

 

[Stoneymonster]

When someone involved in a dispute states something happened, but specifically refuses to provide evidence (or in this case give access to that evidence) it's often not because they are simply being contrary...

Indeed. Plus it's deeply selfish and irresponsible if there *is* an issue that Tesla could fix, to not let them have access to the vehicle to find it.

 

[byan1232]

This is getting a bit comical... If some of you are going to overreact and nit pick each and every Tesla accident then it's only fair you post every single accident out there from a non-Tesla automobile...

Jeff

.

I think it is a cause for concern if it is a fatal accident. And by cause of concern I mean drivers who don't have any common sense and complete idiots.

 

[techmaven]

The current AEB system, like pretty much all available AEB systems have trouble detecting stationary objects, especially offset lane vehicles or objects that don't look like vehicles.

I think the new firmware 8.0 will help address this issue.

 

[Pando]

Usually in the US, when these street sweepers are on the highway, there is a train of trucks behind with signs, it's really hard to miss. It's surprising to me that they just are plodding along in the fast last at 5mph with no other warning. Pretty stupid on that side of things as well. It doesn't take a Tesla on auto-pilot for this to have happened.

Exactly. There is usually a row of cones as well giving the driver plenty of warning to move over to another lane. This sweeper was just there in a half-fog blocking half the lane in a high speed traffic. Unbelievable.

 

[Rockster]

The headline is wrong until confirmed.

Sadly, the average Joe Lunchbox, a lemming to an irresponsible media, will see only the headline and form an opinion accordingly. Then clueless government morons (sorry, I'm being redundant), will feel the need to "do something!" to keep us safer. Making things even worse, the concept of personal responsibility and common sense has been effectively purged from modern society, which flings the gates open for parasitical lawsuits by opportunist trial lawyers and grieving families who just can't bring themselves to admit that even though their loved one may have had many positive qualities, they ultimately died by their own stupidity.

The net result of this feeding frenzy will be car that's slowly nerfed into uselessness.

 

[byan1232]

Sadly, the average Joe Lunchbox, a lemming to an irresponsible media, will see only the headline and form an opinion accordingly. Then clueless government morons (sorry, I'm being redundant), will feel the need to "do something!" to keep us safer. Making things even worse, the concept of personal responsibility and common sense has been effectively purged from modern society, which flings the gates open for parasitical lawsuits by opportunist trial lawyers and grieving families who just can't bring themselves to admit that even though their loved one may have had many positive qualities, they ultimately died by their own stupidity.

The net result of this feeding frenzy will be car that's slowly nerfed into uselessness.

This is exactly what I am worried about.

 

[Tam]

This is getting a bit comical... If some of you are going to overreact and nit pick each and every Tesla accident then it's only fair you post every single accident out there from a non-Tesla automobile...

Jeff

I support transparency so owners can learn from others' experience.

Google reports every one of its autonomous vehicles' accidents on its blog so I don't see why Tesla cannot do one:

Monthly reports – Google Self-Driving Car Project

 

[green1]

The net result of this feeding frenzy will be car that's slowly nerfed into uselessness.

Too late, see the official releases about 8.0
Tesla promised "Hands free on-ramp to off-ramp driving"
Tesla delivered "Hands lightly on wheel on-ramp to off-ramp driving while in a straight line with no curves, if a curve is detected you must wiggle the wheel"
Tesla then changed that to "Hands lightly on wheel on-ramp to off-ramp driving while in a straight line with no curves and for a maximum time that depends on the classification of road you are on and with a maximum speed tied to the car's (often erroneous) interpretation of the speed limit and at the time limit or if a curve is detected you must wiggle the wheel"
Tesla is now promising to change it to "Hands lightly on wheel on-ramp to off-ramp driving while in a straight line with no curves and for a maximum time of 3 minutes at slow speed and 1 minute at high speed with a maximum speed tied to the car's (often erroneous) interpretation of the speed limit and at the time limit or if a curve is detected you must wiggle the wheel and if you are a bit too slow to wiggle the wheel on 3/60 requests that you shouldn't have seen anyway because you were watching the road like a good driver we'll force you to pull over on the shoulder of the highway and put it in park before resuming"

I'm not really sure how they can nerf it any more than that, but I really don't want to wait to find out.

 

[msnow]

Too late, see the official releases about 8.0
Tesla promised "Hands free on-ramp to off-ramp driving"
Tesla delivered "Hands lightly on wheel on-ramp to off-ramp driving while in a straight line with no curves, if a curve is detected you must wiggle the wheel"
Tesla then changed that to "Hands lightly on wheel on-ramp to off-ramp driving while in a straight line with no curves and for a maximum time that depends on the classification of road you are on and with a maximum speed tied to the car's (often erroneous) interpretation of the speed limit and at the time limit or if a curve is detected you must wiggle the wheel"
Tesla is now promising to change it to "Hands lightly on wheel on-ramp to off-ramp driving while in a straight line with no curves and for a maximum time of 3 minutes at slow speed and 1 minute at high speed with a maximum speed tied to the car's (often erroneous) interpretation of the speed limit and at the time limit or if a curve is detected you must wiggle the wheel and if you are a bit too slow to wiggle the wheel on 3/60 requests that you shouldn't have seen anyway because you were watching the road like a good driver we'll force you to pull over on the shoulder of the highway and put it in park before resuming"

I'm not really sure how they can nerf it any more than that, but I really don't want to wait to find out.

But if your hand was lightly on the wheel starting day 1 (not hands free) with 7.0 on through 7.1 (and the dozens of point releases including AP updates) and now with 8.0 the user experience hasn't changed much for that driver other than the first iterations of AP were pretty bouncy and squirrelly (and a little scary) right?
The next level of nerfing could be if both hands aren't on the wheel for 10 seconds AP shuts off. That could be the next step if the 8.0 controls don't work and regulators mandate it. By the way, when you say Tesla should fight the controls are you saying they should fight the regulators in the various countries that are feeling the political pressure to force Tesla to do something?

 

[ApauloThirteen]

Usually in the US, when these street sweepers are on the highway, there is a train of trucks behind with signs, it's really hard to miss. It's surprising to me that they just are plodding along in the fast last at 5mph with no other warning. Pretty stupid on that side of things as well. It doesn't take a Tesla on auto-pilot for this to have happened.

Yep, it is a massive NO NO NO to block a freeway lane (effectively that's what the sweeper was doing) for precisely these reasons. Back in the day we had a second trailer (big rig) stalled blocking about 1 foot of northbound I-5 at 2 am in the morning. CHP was literally going bonkers in getting that moved off the road asap. They had flares a mile up the road and cars with lights, were thinking of closing off the lane completely, until it did get moved way off to the shoulder.

Sad situation, typical accident - a series of events occurring at specific times (streetsweeper, driver not paying attention, mass of truck vs car, speed, etc).

 

[green1]

But if your hand was lightly on the wheel starting day 1 (not hands free) with 7.0 on through 7.1 (and the dozens of point releases including AP updates) and now with 8.0 the user experience hasn't changed much for that driver other than the first iterations of AP were pretty bouncy and squirrelly (and a little scary) right?
The next level of nerfing could be if both hands aren't on the wheel for 10 seconds AP shuts off. That could be the next step if the 8.0 controls don't work and regulators mandate it. By the way, when you say Tesla should fight the controls are you saying they should fight the regulators in the various countries that are feeling the political pressure to force Tesla to do something?

No regulatory body with jurisdiction where I am has demanded any changes to AP. If you believe otherwise, please provide proof.
This isn't regulators pushing for more restrictions it's Tesla caving to idiots in the press who want a big story. Tesla needs to stand up to these people.

If the original car makers had been held to this same standard we'd still be riding horses everywhere. If cavemen had been held to this standard the wheel would never have been invented.

 

[msnow]

No regulatory body with jurisdiction where I am has demanded any changes to AP. If you believe otherwise, please provide proof.
This isn't regulators pushing for more restrictions it's Tesla caving to idiots in the press who want a big story. Tesla needs to stand up to these people.

If the original car makers had been held to this same standard we'd still be riding horses everywhere. If cavemen had been held to this standard the wheel would never have been invented.

For starters down here we have both the NHTSA and NTSB investigating the Florida accident. Those are both powerful regulators and they have likely (I'm speculating) been giving Tesla feedback on what they need to do. So there's that.

 

[green1]

Neither the NHTSA nor the NTSB have jurisdiction outside of the USA, so why destroy AP for everyone?
And do you have any proof that either of these organizations have told Tesla to do so? I certainly haven't seen any.

 

[kirkbauer]

Driver-side offset high-speed collision is pretty much the worst case in crash survival. I almost did this myself 15 years ago (obviously not a Tesla nor any AutoPilot) and most likely wouldn't have survived.

I admit I trust AP quite a bit, but only when I not likely to die. When in 10mph stop-and-go traffic I trust it completely. But at 60+mph then I'm watching the road just as much as without AP.