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Another 'Sudden Acceleration' lawsuit
- Thread starter Joelc
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- Tesla Inc.
mknox
Well-Known Member
I've heard things like this from many people, but never experienced it much myself. I was very worried when I got my Model S because the gear selector is right where the wiper stalk was on my last car... and you pushed the end of the stalk to activate the washers! Never made that mistake once (thank goodness). I've also never once got out of an ICE forgetting to turn it off, but to be honest, after 4 years and 75,000 miles,I still occasionally reach for the ignition switch when I go to get out.
Am I the only one who finds these racist (and now sexist) references to Korean drivers unfortunate and unnecessary?
I think discussing cultural influences can be legitimate, but I'd rather we'd not make suggestively generalized posts about the nationality of the driver in this instance. Let alone jokes as above.
I think discussing cultural influences can be legitimate, but I'd rather we'd not make suggestively generalized posts about the nationality of the driver in this instance. Let alone jokes as above.
I had a moderator (who is not Asian) upset at me cracking jokes about Asian female drivers. Me being Asian and being married to an Asian and watching Asian inlaws drive gives me great credibility in discussing the topic.
Stereotypes exist for a reason and for whatever reason as a percentage - I find Asians -in general- less aware of their vehicle and the environment when on the road. We need to stop being politically correct, find out why we have significant deltas and improve driver education for segments of the population that are disproportionately exhibiting poor driving behavior and awareness.
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Tam
Well-Known Member
Nazis and White Supremacists have long claimed that science, statistics, numbers... are on their side to explain why they should rule the world because they are superior such as having better IQs than other races.
It is insensitive to joke about someone based on race or gender.
The US has elected a female-genital-grabbing commander-in-chief so it is even more important to be vigilant and to not normalize such behaviors.
Krugerrand
Meow
Actually, I eluded to that way back on page 2. This isn't complicated, difficult or anything else. People do this ALL the time and will swear up and down they didn't.
Time to turn lemons into lemonade. Generally, car overriding driver is bad. But specifically....
New feature: "super park". First time, park where you want the car to stop. Press "remember this as parking location" button. Subsequent times, geofencing knows you are in a parking situation, and so will never let the power go above (picking some numbers out of the...air) 5% throttle and/or 5 MPH. It will not allow car to move beyond where the sonar sensors are showing "stop" without some sort of override.
This requires driver to initially mark parking locations...perhaps fleet learning could indicate public parking areas and one could "opt in" to allowing restrictions on your driving in said areas too. Might prevent the drive through Walmart scenarios.
New feature: "super park". First time, park where you want the car to stop. Press "remember this as parking location" button. Subsequent times, geofencing knows you are in a parking situation, and so will never let the power go above (picking some numbers out of the...air) 5% throttle and/or 5 MPH. It will not allow car to move beyond where the sonar sensors are showing "stop" without some sort of override.
This requires driver to initially mark parking locations...perhaps fleet learning could indicate public parking areas and one could "opt in" to allowing restrictions on your driving in said areas too. Might prevent the drive through Walmart scenarios.
You missed my point, though. It was easy to see confusing accelerator with brake when just pressing a pedal from no pedal being pressed. I would assume most cases are like that... creep in on automatic, no pedals pressed and press the brake to stop except miss it and floor accelerator instead.
In this case accelerator was being used to enter the garage. At 17%. That is undisputed. Seeing why someone would press the same pedal they are pressing already to move the car, suddenly press it fully, was a little harder to see than a mistake in choosing the right pedal.
I still think it is harder to see but the scenario presented for it is at least plausible. Lack of EV creep (depending on settings) and instant acceleration contributing to the confusion.
As I said, cultural differences are IMO a fair conversation (not everyone would agree but I would). Throwing hasty generalizations at the driver based on nationality in a joking or dismissive manner is a bit different. It is unnecessary, inaccuarte and borders bullying IMO.
It is one thing to discuss cultural deltas and likelihoods etc. and quite another to explain away an individual case by them from the start in a dismissive manner.
Had fun reading the law firm press release and then the full complaint.
In the complaint, the PI lawyers wrote:
"Astoundingly, the driver can exit the vehicle and the Tesla will open the garage door, enter the garage, park itself, and shut down without a driver operating the vehicle." https://mccunewright.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Class-Action-Complaint-Tesla.pdf
Too bad their moronic client didn't use that feature and instead slammed on the accel pedal to crash into his house.
These lawyers are either taking advantage of a client who is stupid enough to pay them to file a losing lawsuit, or who are themselves stupidly funding the sure loser of a litigation themselves with no hope of a contingency fee payout. Read the complaint yourself to see how astonishingly stupid their claims are.
In short, their whole argument, knowing that the evidence will show that their bonehead client mashed the accel pedal, is that even if the driver stupidly mashes the accel pedal, the car should know that it is about to crash into the owner's home, and instead override the driver input.
They write:
"There are different causes of SUA events. They can be caused by a problem with the vehicle, by a driver error in pedal misapplication, or a combination of a problem with the vehicle causing pedal misapplication. "
In fact, except for Toyota with sticky accel pedals and improper floor mats, the only other cause of SUA is driver error. See NASA - NASA's Toyota Study Released by Dept. of Transportation
It's All Your Fault: The DOT Renders Its Verdict on Toyota's Unintended-Acceleration Scare - Feature
But these lawyers essentially concede that their client misapplied accel pedal, and have a theory for that anyway.
"Despite repeated instances of Model X drivers reporting uncommanded full power acceleration while parking, Tesla has failed to develop and implement computer algorithms that would eliminate the danger of full power acceleration into fixed objects. This failure to provide a programming fix is especially confounding for a vehicle that knows when it is located at the driver’s home and is being parked in the garage, yet carries out an instruction, regardless of whether through an error by the vehicle control systems or by driver pedal misapplication, to accelerate at full power into the garage wall"
NB: "or by driver pedal misapplication"
See how they describe the facts:
"Plaintiff Ji Chang Son was the driver of the Model X when the vehicle experienced uncommanded full power acceleration while he was pulling into the garage of his home in Orange County, California, on September 10, 2016, causing the vehicle to crash through the interior wall of the garage of his home and come to rest in Plaintiff’s living room, injuring Plaintiff Ji Chang Son and his son, Plaintiff K.M.S., who was a front seat passenger in the vehicle.
NB: "the vehicle experienced uncommanded full power acceleration"
The "vehicle experienced"? WTF is that? DId your client step on the accel or not ?!?! Presumably they used the weasel word "uncommanded" since a pedal misapplication of full accel wouldn't be a command for full accell -- but rather just a bone-headed accident mistake for full accell.
Then they try to use the unverified NHTSA reports to equate those 10 reports with 16,000 Model X on the road to be much higher than the overall average of 1/100,000 cars on the road. Of course they ignore the basic statistical demographic information that is unique to the Tesla Model X current small and new and elderly sample size and the other factors that correlate with SUA: age of driver and newness of car. New cars (i.e., unfamiliar to the driver) have more SUA. Also, older drivers also have higher SUA.
Tesla Model X is expensive and therefor mostly purchased by wealthier (i.e., older) drivers. And most Model X have only been owned a few months as over half of all Model X were sold in the 3Q.
So the small size of 10 accidents were in new cars to mostly older drivers ---> SUA happens.
SUA happens because old farts press the wrong pedal on their shiny new wheels! And they do it all the time.
How Real are the Defects in Toyota's Cars?
But the lawyers know this and so they claim that the Model X is defective for, "The lack of a proper fail-safe logic that will cut power and apply the brakes when the vehicle registers full power acceleration when there are fixed objects in the immediate path of the vehicle;"
Well, but other people complain that Tesla does have such a feature/bug: "Obstacle detected" - blocking acceleration - very dangerous!
Also makes the interesting claim:
"85. When Plaintiff Son bought his Model X for personal, family, and household purposes, he reasonably expected the vehicle would (a) not accelerate unless commanded to do so by application of the accelerator pedal or other driver controlled means; (b) would not accelerate when it knows will result in the collision with a fixed object; and (c) would not deactivate the automatic emergency braking when it receives instructions to accelerate 100% into a fixed object."
So their client bought the car thinking that it wouldn't accelerate when the car "knows" the acceleration will result in a collision with a fixed object.
What a stupid client, represented by moronic lawyers -- one of these parties will lose the cost of this investment in this lawsuit.
Elon Musk creates jobs and innovates, and these lawyers are a deadweight loss on society -- creating a waste of everyone's time because their client is an embarrassed fool who lost his face on his garage floor and expects to save it by trying to litigate on the basis that the client thought he could point the car in his garage mash the wrong pedal and not suffer the consequences that he caused.
In the complaint, the PI lawyers wrote:
"Astoundingly, the driver can exit the vehicle and the Tesla will open the garage door, enter the garage, park itself, and shut down without a driver operating the vehicle." https://mccunewright.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Class-Action-Complaint-Tesla.pdf
Too bad their moronic client didn't use that feature and instead slammed on the accel pedal to crash into his house.
These lawyers are either taking advantage of a client who is stupid enough to pay them to file a losing lawsuit, or who are themselves stupidly funding the sure loser of a litigation themselves with no hope of a contingency fee payout. Read the complaint yourself to see how astonishingly stupid their claims are.
In short, their whole argument, knowing that the evidence will show that their bonehead client mashed the accel pedal, is that even if the driver stupidly mashes the accel pedal, the car should know that it is about to crash into the owner's home, and instead override the driver input.
They write:
"There are different causes of SUA events. They can be caused by a problem with the vehicle, by a driver error in pedal misapplication, or a combination of a problem with the vehicle causing pedal misapplication. "
In fact, except for Toyota with sticky accel pedals and improper floor mats, the only other cause of SUA is driver error. See NASA - NASA's Toyota Study Released by Dept. of Transportation
It's All Your Fault: The DOT Renders Its Verdict on Toyota's Unintended-Acceleration Scare - Feature
But these lawyers essentially concede that their client misapplied accel pedal, and have a theory for that anyway.
"Despite repeated instances of Model X drivers reporting uncommanded full power acceleration while parking, Tesla has failed to develop and implement computer algorithms that would eliminate the danger of full power acceleration into fixed objects. This failure to provide a programming fix is especially confounding for a vehicle that knows when it is located at the driver’s home and is being parked in the garage, yet carries out an instruction, regardless of whether through an error by the vehicle control systems or by driver pedal misapplication, to accelerate at full power into the garage wall"
NB: "or by driver pedal misapplication"
See how they describe the facts:
"Plaintiff Ji Chang Son was the driver of the Model X when the vehicle experienced uncommanded full power acceleration while he was pulling into the garage of his home in Orange County, California, on September 10, 2016, causing the vehicle to crash through the interior wall of the garage of his home and come to rest in Plaintiff’s living room, injuring Plaintiff Ji Chang Son and his son, Plaintiff K.M.S., who was a front seat passenger in the vehicle.
NB: "the vehicle experienced uncommanded full power acceleration"
The "vehicle experienced"? WTF is that? DId your client step on the accel or not ?!?! Presumably they used the weasel word "uncommanded" since a pedal misapplication of full accel wouldn't be a command for full accell -- but rather just a bone-headed accident mistake for full accell.
Then they try to use the unverified NHTSA reports to equate those 10 reports with 16,000 Model X on the road to be much higher than the overall average of 1/100,000 cars on the road. Of course they ignore the basic statistical demographic information that is unique to the Tesla Model X current small and new and elderly sample size and the other factors that correlate with SUA: age of driver and newness of car. New cars (i.e., unfamiliar to the driver) have more SUA. Also, older drivers also have higher SUA.
Tesla Model X is expensive and therefor mostly purchased by wealthier (i.e., older) drivers. And most Model X have only been owned a few months as over half of all Model X were sold in the 3Q.
So the small size of 10 accidents were in new cars to mostly older drivers ---> SUA happens.
SUA happens because old farts press the wrong pedal on their shiny new wheels! And they do it all the time.
How Real are the Defects in Toyota's Cars?
But the lawyers know this and so they claim that the Model X is defective for, "The lack of a proper fail-safe logic that will cut power and apply the brakes when the vehicle registers full power acceleration when there are fixed objects in the immediate path of the vehicle;"
Well, but other people complain that Tesla does have such a feature/bug: "Obstacle detected" - blocking acceleration - very dangerous!
Also makes the interesting claim:
"85. When Plaintiff Son bought his Model X for personal, family, and household purposes, he reasonably expected the vehicle would (a) not accelerate unless commanded to do so by application of the accelerator pedal or other driver controlled means; (b) would not accelerate when it knows will result in the collision with a fixed object; and (c) would not deactivate the automatic emergency braking when it receives instructions to accelerate 100% into a fixed object."
So their client bought the car thinking that it wouldn't accelerate when the car "knows" the acceleration will result in a collision with a fixed object.
What a stupid client, represented by moronic lawyers -- one of these parties will lose the cost of this investment in this lawsuit.
Elon Musk creates jobs and innovates, and these lawyers are a deadweight loss on society -- creating a waste of everyone's time because their client is an embarrassed fool who lost his face on his garage floor and expects to save it by trying to litigate on the basis that the client thought he could point the car in his garage mash the wrong pedal and not suffer the consequences that he caused.
My prediction is that Tesla will put a lot of effort into discrediting this lawsuit in order to make an example of Ji Chang Son and his lawyers.
Musk needs to nip this sort of thing in the bud before the Model 3 comes along, when we'll suddenly have a lot more cars of this type on the road with drivers who haven't experienced the subtle differences between an ICE vehicle and performance EV with regen.
Musk needs to nip this sort of thing in the bud before the Model 3 comes along, when we'll suddenly have a lot more cars of this type on the road with drivers who haven't experienced the subtle differences between an ICE vehicle and performance EV with regen.
Tam
Well-Known Member
It is well known that a person of a same race has a capacity of hurting against that same very race.
"Some Africans did play a role in the slave trade and the trade could not have been as large as it was without cooperation from Africans. "
Some Jews, such as Breitbart editor Milo Yiannopoulos, are associated with White Supremacist "Alt-Right" which Trump's Chief Strategist and Senior Counselor Steve Bannon were quoted “We're the platform for the alt-right.”
On the other hand, kids in high school were seen chanting "White Power" but they might have no idea that racial divisiveness has been very self destructive such as World War II due to anti-Semitism , Cambodia genocide due to Anti-ethnic Vietnamese, Chinese, and even native Cambodian minorities, Bosnian genocide, Rwandan genocide...
Stereotype used in Vietnam war costed innocent lives as some American Soldiers were trigger-happy when they saw somebody, even babies and women, who didn't look like them in My Lai massacre.
Telling jokes and shouting racial slurs in high school does not mean genocide.
Nevertheless, it is a slippery slope and when racism is normalized, it can incrementally lead toward human self destruction as recorded by the history.
"However, research on traffic accidents actually shows that many of the groups who are often stereotyped as “bad drivers” — women, Asians, and the elderly — are actually less likely to get into accidents or break traffic laws than are people from other demographic groups. For example, a recent Australian traffic study found that Asian-born drivers had about half the risk of an accident as their Australian-born peers."
"...a 2011 Canadian study, where researchers found that recent immigrants (largely from China and India) were 40 to 50 percent less likely than long-term residents to be involved in a crash.
...The bad-Asian-driver myth can now be classified as debunked...."
Dueling Stereotypes: Bad Asian Drivers, Good At Everything
^ I'm not even too concerned at that level. This is a mostly well-behaved car forum. It is not some beehive of racist behaviour, even if someone makes a ill-thought joke or too. Of course I agree it would be better without such.
However, what I do especially dislike is how the Asian's are bad drivers stereotype was used to dismiss and disgrace the owner in this case, by people who do not know him and have no basis of making such a determination in his case.
We have no idea if this particular individual has stereotypical tendencies, even if we were to - for the sake of argument - assume those stereotypes have some relevancy. (I make no assertion there, just let's assume so for a moment for the sake of the argument.)
For all we know, this guy could be notably anti-stereotypical. That's why it is so unhelpful to the conversation to make such specific dismissals based on a stereotype. Stereotypes and statistics can help in determining trends etc., but they can be extremely misleading in invidual cases.
Not to mention unfair.
(And yes, it was bordering on racism and sexism in a few of the comments, but that's almost beside the point as far as the conversation itself goes in this case.)
However, what I do especially dislike is how the Asian's are bad drivers stereotype was used to dismiss and disgrace the owner in this case, by people who do not know him and have no basis of making such a determination in his case.
We have no idea if this particular individual has stereotypical tendencies, even if we were to - for the sake of argument - assume those stereotypes have some relevancy. (I make no assertion there, just let's assume so for a moment for the sake of the argument.)
For all we know, this guy could be notably anti-stereotypical. That's why it is so unhelpful to the conversation to make such specific dismissals based on a stereotype. Stereotypes and statistics can help in determining trends etc., but they can be extremely misleading in invidual cases.
Not to mention unfair.
(And yes, it was bordering on racism and sexism in a few of the comments, but that's almost beside the point as far as the conversation itself goes in this case.)
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In my book, anyone who drives their car into their living room lacks the necessary driving skills, regardless of who they are as a person.
If you have experienced driving in countries other than your own, you may have seen variations in driver behavior and skill level. That could be down to the training new drivers receive and how stringent the test is to get a licence. Culture also plays a part, I would suggest.
It's always a bit unfair to stereotype, but there could also be something in it if you keep an open mind.
If you have experienced driving in countries other than your own, you may have seen variations in driver behavior and skill level. That could be down to the training new drivers receive and how stringent the test is to get a licence. Culture also plays a part, I would suggest.
It's always a bit unfair to stereotype, but there could also be something in it if you keep an open mind.
Most of the time, perhaps. I'm sure there are a few mistake scenarios that could reasonably happen to good drivers as well, being distracted by some events.
However, the biggest one of course would be the car actually accelerating by itself. It is extremely unlikely in this particular event, but a car failure related accident could certainly happen to a driver of any pedigree.
The assumption that cars failures never cause accidents seems as unlikely as saying plane failures never cause plane crashes.
Texas
Member
Human error has proven to be the cause of virtually all "sudden acceleration" cases in automotive history.
I had two very scary “sudden acceleration” events about a year ago, which I now believe resulted from placing the “Creep” setting in the off position. Both occurred in parking lots where I was maneuvering at 4-5 mph, and both occurred when suddenly and unexpectedly I hit 6 -8” high curbs located in places where I didn’t anticipate hitting anything. My knee jerk reaction was to hit the brakes, of course. Unfortunately, because “Creep” was off, my foot was on the accelerator, not above the brake. So when I “hit the brakes” I actually hit the accelerator and power launched right there in the parking garage. Thanks to good luck, I didn’t hit anyone or do any property damage, even to the car, although I was really shaken. I now keep Creep turned on, so that when slowly driving around in a parking garage the natural place for my foot is over the brake. I have had no more “sudden acceleration” scares since then.
I had two very scary “sudden acceleration” events about a year ago, which I now believe resulted from placing the “Creep” setting in the off position. Both occurred in parking lots where I was maneuvering at 4-5 mph, and both occurred when suddenly and unexpectedly I hit 6 -8” high curbs located in places where I didn’t anticipate hitting anything. My knee jerk reaction was to hit the brakes, of course. Unfortunately, because “Creep” was off, my foot was on the accelerator, not above the brake. So when I “hit the brakes” I actually hit the accelerator and power launched right there in the parking garage. Thanks to good luck, I didn’t hit anyone or do any property damage, even to the car, although I was really shaken. I now keep Creep turned on, so that when slowly driving around in a parking garage the natural place for my foot is over the brake. I have had no more “sudden acceleration” scares since then.
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