Another tragic fatality with a semi in Florida. This time a Model 3

[OPRCE]

So we know the camera sees the trailer.

... at 5mph from 30m out, yes, but there is no hard evidence yet as to what it makes of a side-on semi from 150m at >=70mph, only the proximate supposition that it may be very little indeed.

 

[Msjulie]

We don’t know when during this time the truck pulled into the road or at what point it would have been visible to AutoPilot or an attentive driver.

Those cross-highway roads are terrible, and require full attention for this exact reason.

Both of the above speak to gained experience - a new/novice driver might be thinking that the things they need to pay attention to are always "in front" of them, on the same road. But over time, an experienced drive (hopefully) notices things like parallel roads, cross roads, etc and starts to plan ahead for what-if; in this case, the what if that cross road up there has a vehicle that comes into 'my' lane in an unexpected way.

There have been a number of times where something to either side of me (or even behind) has caught my attention, such that I actually focus and think on what I see may be about to happen and then thank my stars I did because whatever seemed to be 'over there' made a directional change that may not have been anticipated by a driver whose is not proactively scanning. A number of these 'Tesla saved me' videos were, to me, avoidable by plain old squishy-brained (but attentive) drivers detecting something about the other vehicle being off, whether is was a weave or a slow but inevitable drift out of their own lane or some other hazard in front of said vehicle.

Will FSD be able to incorporate such learnings and experience? I hope so but some seem to be pretty tricky problems.

 

[VT_EE]

... at 5mph from 30m out, yes, but there is no hard evidence yet as to what it makes of a side-on semi from 150m at >=70mph, only the proximate supposition that it may be very little indeed.

True. We need Verygreen to take one for the team and hit the accelerator next time a truck pulls out in front of him

 

[dww12]

you mean like this?

green on Twitter

Yep, that explains it. Thank you!

 

[Leafdriver333]

Scary...
20 years ago, I was in a similar situation when a 18 wheeler pulled out about 80 yards in front of me in the pitch dark with no blinkers onto a 3 lane freeway from the left shoulder.
I was in the far left lane going 8 mph above the 70mph limit.
I swerved quickly to the right and my '97 Honda Accord started spinning out.
I counter steered repeatedly while braking. At one point the car was going backwards also. The car finally came to a stop scraping the guardrail on the right.
The truck and my car didn't make a contact and the truck driver took off without stopping.

I could have been decapitated that night.

When the car was spinning and skidding, my girlfriend in the passenger seat was screaming loudly like in the car accident videos on YouTube. Her left hand was grabbing my right shoulder and her right hand was clenching her seatbelt.
I am thankful for my cat-like reflexes that saved us that night.

 

[OPRCE]

True. We need Verygreen to take one for the team and hit the accelerator next time a truck pulls out in front of him

Maybe a bunch of Tesla owners local to VG would collaborate on producing more rigorous hazard-scenario testing, done in a safe way and captured on film for the education of us all? That would be an official TMC project worth sponsoring, IMHO.

 

[Cloxxki]

nope, it's not really filtered out (the 2nd line at the bottom object description comes from radar). green on Twitter

If I understand corrently Tesla refuses to build maps that would expect the overpass in that exact place and height, rather gamble that the cars passing there would guess the situation right every time. And then once in a while mistake a semi for an overpass that was never there.

 

[Leafdriver333]

Computers can be so dumb and clueless.

 

[verygreen]

It's equally significant that the label beneath the bounding box reads "No Rad Sig",

Well, do note these are "fusion" results (we don't yet know how to read raw radar feed that I capture). So in that sceenshot you can se there's a radar return from behind the trailer on a stopped car for example. could it be a mistake in fusion instead? If you watch the actual video frame by frame, you can see that the radar return comes in and out on the truck and sometimes switching to stuff behind it, so it's well possible radar see it the whole time, it's just the fusion code outside radar that's not doing a supergreat job. In fact I can probably do a bit more digging to confirm that theory but I am not sure it's all that important.

If I understand corrently Tesla refuses to build maps that would expect the overpass in that exact place and height, rather gamble that the cars passing there would guess the situation right every time. And then once in a while mistake a semi for an overpass that was never there.

the old style maps don't do it, replacing it with flags like "don't brake based on radar returns here" instead. Could they do better? I guess so. But apparently it's not a priority for whatever reason.

 

[chronopc]

Computers can be so dumb and clueless.

Unlike humans.

Self driving-fatalities is currently at 5 going back to January 2016.
List of self-driving car fatalities - Wikipedia

Human driving fatalities in the US in 2017 was over 37k.
Motor vehicle fatality rate in U.S. by year - Wikipedia

 

[verygreen]

Unlike humans.

Computers have this nice property. They do exactly what you tell them to (though there's a downside, they don't do what you want them to do)!

 

[SMAlset]

Sorry this is so long and done from my phone.

After sleeping on this entire subject, here is where I land on this. All the technical jargon on this aside.

For about a year after getting my car and a few dead stopped fire engine accidents on highways is when this Amateur Tesla owner figured out this car will not be stopping, attempt to stop or maybe even not maneuvering around stopped objects in highways at higher speeds then 35mph or some threshold I am still trying to find that answer. I had gone a year not knowing this. I thought my car did everything. All the sheepish expressions when asking Tesla employee a question are all coming into view now in my memory.

Two years prior to buying and years after up until yesterday before I knew Jeremy was killed, I had written essays and recommended people to either buy a Tesla or seriously consider it even as their next car. To date I have zero referrals. There are 5 Teslas in my neighborhood and I know probably 3-4 others around my circle that own Tesla’s. Did I influence any of that? Either way I now almost feel it’s my duty as another human being to inform them completely that these cars are not going to save your life. In fact they might give you a false sense that they will save your life.

I am certainly from this point forward shutting my mouth to help this cause for fear I will have blood on my hands. What makes me think this way. If I had been able to sit down and just in a few minutes let Jeremy know some facts that he would have found enlightening, I’m sure being a software engineer he would have taken that info and at least investigated for himself. Would it have changed the outcome we have here, nobody knows.

I know for sure there are many aspects of at least of a Model S that cause undue loss of life. How about the BLUE Model S fire in Ft Lauderdale. People reported trying to open the car door. The handles were not or did not pop out upon impact. They sat and watched that person burn to death. Had they even broken the window (one Tesla employee suggested)and with all the heat and the rush: Do you think they would have found the special release handle located on the door we all know about up by the stationary wing window?
The one we all grab daily if your an owner of a model S. Think about it. It’s not easily understood.

My first long trip in my car, I showed the other “Emergency Release” to my daughter since she rides in the backseat. I wanted her to know in the event of a crash and the electronics (the back doors depend 100% on electricity) shut down how to get out in the event so as to perhaps save her life. She could barely do it after struggling to find it under her seat. So that’s it. Special releases for people to exit a badly damage or burning vehicle. In the model S that’s just the rear passengers have to know that. Now if any Model S owner just read this and you never knew this, well you need to get your manual out on your computer and read it from to back and do it again in another week.

So my point is this, this car, this entanglement of tech and not so tech, before a laymen, laywoman, person, child, uses it, rides in it, drives it, you would have to hold classes on the entire aspect of the car, then do it again, before you could safely say I informed, I educated, I have done my part to make sure everyone understands what to do in an Event, ie stopped fire engines, 90 degree facing semis, accidents, fire, on and on. In fact the Model S is the only car I have ever owned where you would have to do that. Dare I say there are other Tesla’s where it’s a requirement. I just have not read the manual and done the in-depth study on those vehicles like I have here. Still learning.

Now Jeremy was competitive. He was also a jealous personality. He was human. How do I know this. The camera quote in my previous posts. He like so many humans fed his ego on facts related to your behind on your tech. He was a software engineer after all. I cannot help but think he kept up with us through Facebook and those posts of my red Tesla Model S, well he was going to do one better with a Red Model 3. You see we are the marketing team for Tesla. The whole universe is looking at our cars. Last night I must have had at least 6-10 people I noticed at lights looking at my car. Those are the ones I noticed. Probably well over 1000 in the whole trip. These are special cars, they take special understanding. Even then I am not convinced they are that special any longer. I’m sorry for myself, others and the planet, because the dream of an electric car has been mine from a very early age. Unfortunately Tesla has taken it too far, too fast and made it so the human beings are not able to understand fully what they have gotten into here. Elon Musk wants to win, the cost for that is steep, the cause I get, the speed at which he is trying to do it in, that’s business.

I in no way blame myself for anything, I do though feel it important to educate. Perhaps I have found my next calling forward. Thanks for reading and safe Travels in whatever your driving. Have a great weekend.

I get the point/s you are making. I will say that while Tesla is in the forefront of tech on cars, others are just behind with their own variants and features and they will be populating the field as well. We are all driving heavy metal vehicles at speeds that can cause death and injuries and that's the way it's been for decades, now with just more tech. Whether now or before, owners and licensed drivers are treated like adults who know this and are expected to understand how their vehicle works prior to getting on the road. I do not see anyone out there being required to take classes on how to drive a particular car before owning it or getting into a different one they weren't "trained" on. It's the driver's responsibility to know and it's his/her responsibility should an accident happen that was their fault.

Every owner at least should be reading their car's manual front to back, and rereading sections of it when they aren't sure about something working correctly or are about to try a new feature they haven't used before. The forums aren't a substitute. But then again how many people read their manual or even parts of it? There was a forum survey on this a while ago. I was among a decent number of people who did but as you guessed probably the majority don't. There are still features I don't use and when people bring up questions about something I will go back to the manual to check if I don't know. I can say I know where the emergency door release is in our Model S even though I don't drive it as often as my Model 3. The emergency info should be something everyone should make the time to know since you don't always have much time to react in an emergency. Tesla provides the manuals on our car, I've got a pdf of it on my phone and on my laptop.

Before getting my Model 3 I had an old 2001 model Toyota Avalon that was in for service and was given a new 2018 Camry I think it was to drive as a loaner. Got in the car and OMG there were buttons all over the place (unlike the older car I was driving). Buttons all over the steer wheel, side door, dashboard area, down the console, etc. Button overload I thought and confusing where to turn or set up things. Since I wasn't familiar with this car, even though I had driven an ICE from the same manufacturer before and we also owned a later model Camry, before leaving the lot I went to check the manual for where and how to access some of the features I knew I'd be using so I wouldn't be distracted looking for and setting the controls. No manual in the car however, so I had to go back into the dealership and ask for one. Have to wonder how many people who drove that loaner car before me even bothered to look for one when they got into it. While features can be kind of universal, how you access them, where they are located and how they might be different from other vehicles is important to understand before you drive. As we know, how one car handles AEB can be different from another. How one adjusts assisted driving features even like vehicle "cruise control and distancing" can be different as can what's considered autopilot, propilot, driver assist, etc. I suspect people will continue to be treated like adults and the expectation and obligation on them for knowing how to handle the car they are getting in behind the wheel will continue to fall solely on them. Simply no way to effectively "make" people learn about the car they are driving. Just like you can't stop people from using the car improperly.

While manufacturers can only go so far in educating people about their cars with manuals, alerts (written and verbal), and website info, they are all trying to develop a safer car bodywise to be driving in. I think Tesla, based on numerous owner reports of how they faired in accidents, does a very good job on that front. There simply will always be accidents out there but hopefully fewer ones and ones that more people survive with only minor injuries. Can't eliminate stupidity or inattentativeness IMO on people's parts and no mater how we'd like to eliminate the human factor it will always be there. Doesn't matter if you own an ICE, a Tesla, an I-Pace, a Prius or what have you.

 

[mongo]

Will FSD be able to incorporate such learnings and experience? I hope so but some seem to be pretty tricky problems.

In the AP presentation, Karpathy spoke about exactly that sort of thing: collecting data on cars that entered the lane (or didn't) that were not using turn signals. So they collected a bunch of fleet data where the cars did move other and ones where the NN thought they would, but didn't. That data was used to improve the NN.

 

[Daniel in SD]

In the AP presentation, Karpathy spoke about exactly that sort of thing: collecting data on cars that entered the lane (or didn't) that were not using turn signals. So they collected a bunch of fleet data where the cars did move other and ones where the NN thought they would, but didn't. That data was used to improve the NN.

I wish they would roll this out to AP. Currently it doesn't seem to react until the car in front is almost entirely in the lane.

 

[verygreen]

btw since I already extracted it by the requests of other people, this is the relevant Tesla adas maps snapshot for the place in question that others might find interesting.
dated "2019-04-26" so already post accident. I am sure NHTSA has full access to this and other maps data in use from the date of the accident, but who knows when they will actually report everything they learned.



Edit: does not seem to load so here's the externally hosted version: maps of the crash site

 

[verygreen]

I wish they would roll this out to AP. Currently it doesn't seem to react until the car in front is almost entirely in the lane.

they did. All the reports of people saying "AP now reacts to blinkers and lets cars merge in! I saw it!" is from that code. It's just not very robust it appears.

 

[Daniel in SD]

btw since I already extracted it by the requests of other people, this is the relevant Tesla adas maps snapshot for the place in question that others might find interesting.
dated "2019-04-26" so already post accident. I am sure NHTSA has full access to this and other maps data in use from the date of the accident, but who knows when they will actually report everything they learned.

View attachment 409639

Edit: does not seem to load so here's the externally hosted version: maps of the crash site

What is radar braking and where is it enabled?

they did. All the reports of people saying "AP now reacts to blinkers and lets cars merge in! I saw it!" is from that code. It's just not very robust it appears.

I just wish it would react better to cars halfway in the lane. It just seems to have no reaction until the other car is almost all the way in the lane. The problem could be that they're training it using Tesla drivers

 

[verygreen]

What is radar braking and where is it enabled?

radar braking is whenever the car would brake for stationary objects in car path based solely on radar. Areas that have bridges/overpasses/... that cause "phantom braking" are marked with the flag to not brake for just radar alone.

 

[Leafdriver333]

Computers have this nice property. They do exactly what you tell them to (though there's a downside, they don't do what you want them to do)!

That's why I don't have faith in AI.
Computers are good at following the rules that the programmer sets.

For example, a large Triangle on the side of the road up ahead. What could it be?

Computer: clueless.

Human: I see the Triangle is being carried by a human whose head and torso are hidden from the view behind the Triangular object.
And he is about the cross the road, and he does not see me.
I had better be ready to stop if he steps on the road.

 

[mongo]

That's why I don't have faith in AI.
Computers are good at following the rules that the programmer sets.

For example, a large Triangle on the side of the road up ahead. What could it be?

Computer: clueless.

Human: I see the Triangle is being carried by a human whose head and torso are hidden from the view behind the Triangular object.
And he is about the cross the road, and he does not see me.
I had better be ready to stop if he steps on the road.

Alternatively:
Computer: beats me, but I'm positive it's not a drivable surface, so if it is going to intersect with my path, I'm stopping.

Like training bank telkers, you don't need to know all the different ways to counterfeit, you only need to be really good at recognizing really money. Or for parents, recognizing your own kids.

Counterfeit Detection (Part 1) - Tim Challies