Any thoughts about a V2H option for the M3?

[Seir]

Our power went out on Friday out here for about 5-6 hrs and I was reading that my little old Leaf had enough juice to power the house for much longer than that.

Was curious if Tesla Motors was thinking about this kind of application as I started looking for backup generators and then considered the PowerWall for backup power and then tripped across the whole V2H thing.

I think it would be a great add-on and a great use of a huge battery at home; solar or not...

 

[Jason Bourne]

It doesn't make sense to me why Tesla would allow their cars to power a house during a power outage, when they are also trying to sell a product that also does exactly that. Why would they compete with themselves?

 

[ThosEM]

They should not be trying to sell powerwalls to people who already own a much larger battery in their Model S. I'm really pretty pissed about this, to be candid about it. From 2006, Tesla touted the ability of electric cars to store energy from midnight charging for use during peak hours. The main objection I've heard here is that people would charge at a nearby supercharger and abuse that privilege.

 

[Seir]

The two products don't really compete though. For $3K the powerwall gives me a great way to store/use electricity (solar or from the grid) or for $35K the Model 3 gives me a great ride with some extraordinary feature. Oh, and by the way, it could be used as backup to power the house.

Thing is, if Tesla doesn't do it, someone else will. As forward-thinking as Tesla is, I would have thought this to be well touted by now.

I will find my own way to make it work if they don't offer it, just thought they might jump on board

 

[Thomas Edison]

I think this would be a good question for someone to tweet Elon.

 

[Sudre]

ThosEM has hit on the reason I think it won't happen. How do you stop someone from topping off at a supercharger on the way home, charging up, then powering their house for the night? rinse repeat. Big lawsuit and/or PR nightmare trying to stop it. Not worth the trouble currently. Lets first get people comfortable with EVs.

Also how does Tesla continue the 8 year infinite mile warranty on the battery when they can't calculate power outages for everyone in the cycle life of the battery. Another PR nightmare in big lawsuit happy US problem. People will expect the battery to last 8 years even if they are using it daily as a power backup.

I think it would be a really great function. I just don't see how it could work. Some would love it for power at their cabin for the weekend instead of using a gas generator, then scream on forums about how it didn't have enough range to get them home afterward.There are just a ton of things it could be used for. That won't change peoples thought processes. Lets run the WSJ article on this feature:

"Here I am testing out the all new Tesla Savior. Not only can this car perform well it can also power my house in case of a brownout. This seemed like a great feature when I drove the car off the dealer lot. Well that night I lost power and was I ever so happy the Tesla kicked in and my alarm clock still went off so I could get to work on time, coffee in hand.
Problem is the poorly designed car didn't know how many miles it was for me to drive to work or that it had snowed that night so my electric furnace suck the life out of my car so I did not have enough range to make it to work. No problem I thought I'll just stop off at a supercharger.
As it turns out everyone thought of this. Not only were there huge lines from everyone trying to charge from the (now) solar powered supercharger but once you got plugged in the car reported that it knew the energy was used for my house and not driving so I had to PAY for the charge! How evil is that to promise a customer free charging for long distance travel and then charge them for it.
This car is a bastion of lies. Not to mention the other poor guy who was circling the parking lot waiting for a stall ran out of charge because the battery just isn't large enough to power a house and get you to the closet supercharger."... I won't go on.

SO after the stock price drops to $30 a share Elon would have to make some kind of tweet and an update would get sent to everyone's car. Basically it would explain if you want power backup for your house, buy that. If you want a $35,000 car buy that.

Can anyone explain to me one thing? An ICE car can ALSO be a generator. I have used service trucks that had a 240 volt generator built into the engine via a pulley and belt. If this is such a great feature to have why do all the $35,000 cars not have it?

Oh and no. It is NOT a free feature that Tesla can add with just a software update. There is a seriously expensive hardware update needed called an inverter... a smart inverter at that.
Outback Power GS8048A Inverter - Wholesale Solar

 

[MP3Mike]

Oh and no. It is NOT a free feature that Tesla can add with just a software update. There is a seriously expensive hardware update needed called an inverter... a smart inverter at that.
Outback Power GS8048A Inverter - Wholesale Solar

Not to mention all the equipment and rewiring that would need to be done to the house to prevent back-feeding power and causing dangerous situations.

So while it is possible there would be a lot of expense involved, and then you can end up with a dead car when you need it most. Not an ideal situation.

 

[ThosEM]

Not to mention all the equipment and rewiring that would need to be done to the house to prevent back-feeding power and causing dangerous situations.

So while it is possible there would be a lot of expense involved, and then you can end up with a dead car when you need it most. Not an ideal situation.

Oh, come now! As if the same hardware is not required for a Powerwall battery. Please! And as if the car is not smart enough to prevent itself from going below a specified safety level needed to get to a working charger, assuming the power to the house does not come back on in time to avoid driving the car somewhere else for a charge.

The trivial solution to the supercharger abuse problem, which also would once and for all resolve all problems with excessive local charging, is to simply charge the local going rate for electricity from the supercharger. Is it that horrible to contemplate a few bucks hit to your credit card when you supercharge? I don't think so... Sooner or late the silly business of free charging is going to go away. All it does is to serve to encourage abuse, and make it seem like valuable energy is not being used when driving a Tesla.

 

[Tiberius]

I'd like to see it as an option but definitely not standard. Not everyone should have to pay for added hardware that only a select few will ever use. It would be dead weight/wasted $$$ for the vast majority.

For those who want it, it should be available. Then again, as an option it would probably cost nearly as much as the powerwall... so now we're back to that.

 

[Jason Bourne]

If the option to make the car in to a battery back-up for your house costs around as much as a Powerwall, why is it even worth it for Tesla to spend time/money to engineer it? If a Model 3 buyer wants to pay extra for that feature, they should buy a Powerwall.

Maybe Tesla would be wise to cross-promote it though. For example, give a 5-10% discount off the purchase of a Powerwall when you buy a Model 3.

 

[voip-ninja]

A big challenge would be whether or not the Tesla is even capable of delivering the amount of power needed in the time-frame required for whole-house distribution. I know that in my home I can easily hit 5,000 watts being pulled if my AC is going and my electric dryer or oven gets turned on.... it could be very hard on the Tesla battery to do this without some protections around brown-outs. Last time I looked at powerwall it had a very low peak power output of something like 1500 watts, which is terrible (much lower than a good Honda gas generator)!

Now, I have 33 x 215w Kyocera panels installed with a Fronius inverter (7100 watt optimal power) and I've been struggling with some kind of whole home backup for a couple of years now trying to figure out how to do it without dropping $20,000 on it.

As others mention, you need transfer switches that will either manually or automatically shut off the grid connection when you are feeding power into your own home. Residential solar installs that are grid-tied already have things wired so that if the grid goes dead the solar panels MUST transfer to ground so that you are not back-feeding the grid and electrocute some poor lineman who is working on it.

I was going to install a generator connector and a manual relay so that I could manually switch over during an outage and run a gas/propane generator to feed 3,000 or so watts directly into the main breaker panel and run the essentials during a lengthy power outage.

Now that I'm considering a model 3 it might make more sense to do this in the garage using the future receptacle for the Tesla (will require expensive sub-panel upgrade for me more than likely).

My "backup plan" was that once the Fronius kicks the bucket down the road I would install a newer generation inverter that includes the ability to side-charge a backup battery string and run home power from that. The problem is that the inverter would run around $3000 and another $7500-$10,000 for enough battery capacity for the house plus I have to wire different battery strings to different circuits, etc, to spread the load out.

So basically all of these options suck. By far the coolest option would be that I buy a Model 3 with an upgraded 50 or 60 kw battery and Tesla gives me the ability to use the car as a backup source for whole-home emergency power, maybe in conjunction with my panels (during the day).

 

[keydiver]

My "backup plan" was that once the Fronius kicks the bucket down the road I would install a newer generation inverter that includes the ability to side-charge a backup battery string and run home power from that.

What inverters have you found with that capability? I have a small Outback FX3524, or something like that, which I use to back up a few essentials, like the fridge, but of course it doesn't interact with my SMA grid-tied inverter system. I've considered installing an SMA Sunny Island, in place of the Outback system, which will interact with the SMA Sunny Boy and make it produce power even when the grid is down. But given that it is only available in the US as a 120 volt setup, I would need 2 of them, with 2 banks of batteries, and 2 sets of solar panels. A lot of money and a lot of work to install.

 

[voip-ninja]

What inverters have you found with that capability? I have a small Outback FX3524, or something like that, which I use to back up a few essentials, like the fridge, but of course it doesn't interact with my SMA grid-tied inverter system. I've considered installing an SMA Sunny Island, in place of the Outback system, which will interact with the SMA Sunny Boy and make it produce power even when the grid is down. But given that it is only available in the US as a 120 volt setup, I would need 2 of them, with 2 banks of batteries, and 2 sets of solar panels. A lot of money and a lot of work to install.

I thought Outback made a larger inverter that could side charge multiple strings of batteries, but maybe I was mistaken.

Unfortunately the "best" option to date is still to simply wire a manual bypass for the house and put in a receptacle for a 4000 watt Honda sine wave generator. I could do the whole job for maybe $5,000 and use the extra savings to buy as much gas and LP tanks as I want in event of a long term power outage.

 

[EVnut]

If the option to make the car in to a battery back-up for your house costs around as much as a Powerwall, why is it even worth it for Tesla to spend time/money to engineer it?

Because the battery in the car is significantly larger capacity than what you'll get with the PowerWall. The solution does not need to to have the expensive, heavy bits built into the car. That stuff can be offboard (inverter, etc) hanging on the wall. The car merely has to allow communication, and bi-directional current through the chargeport.

So I'm thinking that a Powerwall would have most everything you need except for high capacity. It should be able to tap into the car for additional energy. For me this is not an either/or situation. It should be both. Buying a powerwall should allow you to use your huge car battery to power your home when needed.

 

[Seir]

So I'm thinking that a Powerwall would have most everything you need except for high capacity. It should be able to tap into the car for additional energy. For me this is not an either/or situation. It should be both. Buying a powerwall should allow you to use your huge car battery to power your home when needed.

I love this thought that the Powerwall would let you piggyback onto the car, allowing for both charging and discharging. Solves several problems at once and creates a linkage between Tesla products.

The car is, after-all, a rather large Powerwall with wheels and autopilot...

 

[tga]

I thought Outback made a larger inverter that could side charge multiple strings of batteries, but maybe I was mistaken.

You're thinking of the Outback Radian - Outback Power Inc

The GS8048A/GS4048A series adds a new mode ("GridZero") and more advanced charging algorithms to support Li-Ion batteries vs the older GS8048/GS4048

See wk057's awesome off-grid thread. He uses multiple 8kw Radians to run his house: Plan: Off grid solar with a Model S battery pack at the heart

 

[voip-ninja]

You're thinking of the Outback Radian - Outback Power Inc. - Off-Grid Inverter/Chargers Sealed FX3048T

The A series adds a new mode ("GridZero") and more advanced charging algorithms to support Li-Ion batteries.

See wk057 Awesome off-grid thread. He uses multiple 8kw Radians to run his house: Plan: Off grid solar with a Model S battery pack at the heart

Well if I had my druthers I would build a really cool completely off-grid high tech showboat of a house that used wind, solar and geothermal for 100% of the energy needs, and batteries to run things when the renewables didn't have enough juice.

However, I don't have an extra $500K lying around for such things, I have a wife and kids and live in the suburbs, so I have to be realistic about contingency plans and what they cost. At this point I've simply thought of buying a pair of 1K Hondas that can be run in parallel for running my essentials (furnace blower, water heater, fridge).... at least I could take one with me when we go on long camping trips.

 

[Jason Bourne]

At this point I've simply thought of buying a pair of 1K Hondas that can be run in parallel for running my essentials (furnace blower, water heater, fridge).... at least I could take one with me when we go on long camping trips.

That's what I did. I calculated how much juice I'd need to run my fridge, (forced hot air by burning natural gas) heater, a few lights and iPhone chargers and bought a proportionally-sized portable generator and a few 5gallon gas cans. Haven't had to use it since I bought it, so best investment I've ever made .....

 

[Scannerman]

ThosEM has hit on the reason I think it won't happen. How do you stop someone from topping off at a supercharger on the way home, charging up, then powering their house for the night? rinse repeat. Big lawsuit and/or PR nightmare trying to stop it. Not worth the trouble currently. Lets first get people comfortable with EVs.

Also how does Tesla continue the 8 year infinite mile warranty on the battery when they can't calculate power outages for everyone in the cycle life of the battery. Another PR nightmare in big lawsuit happy US problem. People will expect the battery to last 8 years even if they are using it daily as a power backup.

I think it would be a really great function. I just don't see how it could work. Some would love it for power at their cabin for the weekend instead of using a gas generator, then scream on forums about how it didn't have enough range to get them home afterward.There are just a ton of things it could be used for. That won't change peoples thought processes. Lets run the WSJ article on this feature:

"Here I am testing out the all new Tesla Savior. Not only can this car perform well it can also power my house in case of a brownout. This seemed like a great feature when I drove the car off the dealer lot. Well that night I lost power and was I ever so happy the Tesla kicked in and my alarm clock still went off so I could get to work on time, coffee in hand.
Problem is the poorly designed car didn't know how many miles it was for me to drive to work or that it had snowed that night so my electric furnace suck the life out of my car so I did not have enough range to make it to work. No problem I thought I'll just stop off at a supercharger.
As it turns out everyone thought of this. Not only were there huge lines from everyone trying to charge from the (now) solar powered supercharger but once you got plugged in the car reported that it knew the energy was used for my house and not driving so I had to PAY for the charge! How evil is that to promise a customer free charging for long distance travel and then charge them for it.
This car is a bastion of lies. Not to mention the other poor guy who was circling the parking lot waiting for a stall ran out of charge because the battery just isn't large enough to power a house and get you to the closet supercharger."... I won't go on.

SO after the stock price drops to $30 a share Elon would have to make some kind of tweet and an update would get sent to everyone's car. Basically it would explain if you want power backup for your house, buy that. If you want a $35,000 car buy that.

Can anyone explain to me one thing? An ICE car can ALSO be a generator. I have used service trucks that had a 240 volt generator built into the engine via a pulley and belt. If this is such a great feature to have why do all the $35,000 cars not have it?

Oh and no. It is NOT a free feature that Tesla can add with just a software update. There is a seriously expensive hardware update needed called an inverter... a smart inverter at that.
Outback Power GS8048A Inverter - Wholesale Solar

It appears to me that you were caught trying to abuse the intended function, and somehow, that upsets you? Are you upset because you were caught, or because Tesla is not offering unlimited electricity to power your home, swimming pool pump, work shop, ...?

Scannerman

 

[JeffK]

Tesla will probably not go the V2H (V2G) route at this time... There are still laws against anything but solar or wind being put back into the grid in many areas. This is besides the power inverter losses and extra battery wear. As far as using the power for your home only and not the grid, you'd need a way to control the load so you'd normally need extra hardware installed in your home.

Personally the extra wear on the battery alone makes it not worth it. Tesla Powerwall is a far cheaper option and unlike the previous post the powerwall now has a continuous power output of 5kW (7kW peak). Even purchasing two or three of these for $3000 each should provide more than enough backup for a house and is far cheaper than an entire car or having to replace the entire car battery because of it wearing out early.