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I was driving my old manual-transmission Volvo V70 today, and I noticed how I habitually and automatically come to a smooth stop every time.
I depress the clutch pedal, gently reduce the brake pedal pressure as the car slows, and as the car comes to a perfectly smooth stop with no lurch or kickback, the handbrake goes on. (Yes, the handbrake always goes on. That stops the car rolling when one foot's on the clutch pedal and the other's getting ready to press the accelerator to start off again. Call me odd if you like; I was taught to drive by a strict British driving instructor.)
I was struck by the disappointing fact that it's near-impossible to drive my Roadster with the same level of skill that I drive my manual Volvo. With the automatic-transmission-emulating creep fighting the brakes, it's impossible to bring the brake pressure completely to zero as the car stops, so it's impossible to stop the car without that little final kickback.
I say "near-impossible" because I can achieve a smooth stop in the Roadster, but it's a clumsy process:
1. As you're slowing down, pay close attention to the exact moment when the motor switches over from "regen braking" mode to "creep forward" mode, and shift from Drive to Neutral at that exact moment (I have 2008 model with the shifter knob, which helps). Now creep is disengaged.
2. From there use the brake pedal to bring the speed gently down to a smooth stop.
3. As the car gently slows to a complete stop: Brake pedal finishes coming up, handbrake goes on, perfect smooth stop achieved. Success!
Starting off again typically goes like this:
1. Shift into Drive, ready to release handbrake and depress accelerator.
2. BEEP BEEP BEEP, Car says, "Depress brake pedal before shifting into Drive."
3. Move foot from accelerator pedal back to brake pedal.
4. Press brake pedal.
5. "D" light continues blinking.
6. Shift into Neutral.
7. Shift back into Drive.
8. "D" light now illuminates.
9. Remove foot from brake pedal.
10. Note at this point that the car is still *not* creeping. If you doubt me, get in a Roadster and try it. You'll notice that if you release the handbrake, creep does not re-engage until two or three seconds later. The firmware is evidently smart enough to sense that the car is not moving and the handbrake is on, so creep is disabled. (Also note that this fails to achieve the stated safety goal: With the car in Drive and the handbrake on, a child or dog could still press the accelerator and generate enough torque to rocket the Roadster through a concrete wall.)
11. Now release handbrake, depress accelerator, and drive smoothly away.
I was struck by the irony that driving my "automatic" Roadster is so much harder work than driving my "manual" Volvo.
On this forum there are a lot of calls for a user-option to turn off creep. I don't think this is helpful. Giving the user lots of configuration options is not good design. Configuration options are a way of making the user finish your product design process for you, and that's not good design. Good design is making the product just work right, without the user having to tweak the settings, or make crucial decisions about design tradeoffs that you weren't willing or able to make yourself. (See "Joel on Software", such as "Choices" — "design is the art of making choices" and "Choices = Headaches".)
Good design is making something that everyone likes and doesn't feel the need to tweak or customize.
I really think that if Tesla prototyped my suggestion of having the brake pedal suppress creep, they'd find it makes everyone happy. The people who like creep (36% in this teslamotorsclub poll) would be happy because if they sit with the car in Drive, it creeps forward like they want. And most of the people who don't like creep (64%), like me, would be happy because as long as either the handbrake or brake pedal is applied, the car is not trying to creep. (The only group of people still unhappy would be the ones who want the car to stay still even when no brake is applied, and that group may be empty — if a car's on even a slight slope with no brake applied it's probably going to roll forwards or backwards anyway, so what do those people expect?)
Electric cars don't simulate the lurch of an automatic transmission changing gears, so why make them simulate other unnecessary characteristics of a 1950s automatic transmission?
Safety? Yes, I'm fully in favor of it.
Unnecessarily simulating the drawbacks of a primitive mechanical device from the previous century? No, I don't think we need that.
Unfortunately, we can't even follow this method for a perfect stop in the Model S, as the parking brake engages and disengages automatically.
NigelM
Recovering Member
smorgasbord
Active Member
I used to not think this was a problem, but now that I've been driving my Roadster for almost a full year now, I now dislike the creep fighting me on stopping. I strongly encourage Tesla to at least explore Stuart's suggestion for a better driving experience.
After about 2.75 years of driving my Roadster (27,000 miles), I still haven't noticed this, even though I've read this thread before. I'll have to make an effort to pay attention some time and see what all of the fuss is about. Regardless, I expect that there are other things (and probably easier things) that I'd rather have changed ahead of this.
I think the main desire in this category is for the car to come to a complete stop without requiring use of the brakes, e.g. when coming up to a stop sign. Bill Arnett has stated this desire several times. He mentioned getting a "failed to stop" ticket because he was trying to get by with one-pedal negotiation of a stop sign with no traffic.
NigelM
Recovering Member
I'm with *tennis*, it really doesn't bother me at all. In fact I rather like creep as it seems to provide me with just about the right amount of traction on the few inclines we have in FL. Not to say that you guys shouldn't have what you want but even a poll with arguably questionable wording shows that a fair number want to keep creep; so the one point where I disagree with *Stuart* is imposing no-creep on everyone.
+1 for having it optional because I don't like forced choices. I don't like the creep mode in the Prius either--It uses a minimum of 500 Wh. The nice thing is that the Prius actually tells you when you are in creep mode (the tires spin on the energy display).
All that hassle and rigamarole just to avoid the tiny little bump when stopping??? I agree that it would be nice to be allowed to turn off creep, and be able to stop smoothly. But rather than turning the process of coming to a stop into something about as complicated as brain surgery, I'll just live with the "bump," thank you very much. It's not that big a deal, and even in a manual-transmission car, most people expect the stopping bump anyway. :wink:
I'm much more concerned about the black hole under the seat that collects any coins or other small objects I have in my pockets, never to be seen again. :crying: Or the piece-of-garbage Alpine unit. :scared: And none of that (certainly not the bump) detracts from the fun of driving the coolest car ever built.
strider
Active Member
Stuart, when sitting at at stop you should leave your foot ON the brake and not rely on the handbrake to hold you. This is because with only the handbrake the brake lights are not lit and so someone may not see you stopped there. So leave your foot on the brake. In this position the creep is NOT engages (Jerry33, no power is being consumed when stopped). Then the car will not complain when you switch into D and off you go.
I think there should be a menu setting for creep as I want the car to act like a Segway - the computer should keep the car from rolling forward or back when transitioning from brake to throttle. Basically the car should not move unless I gave a control input.
This should be even easier to manage in Model S as they can just automatically shift into Park and engage the e-brake whenever the driver gets out of the seat. Then require the fob to shift back into D or R. This eliminates the child or dog problem.
I think there should be a menu setting for creep as I want the car to act like a Segway - the computer should keep the car from rolling forward or back when transitioning from brake to throttle. Basically the car should not move unless I gave a control input.
This should be even easier to manage in Model S as they can just automatically shift into Park and engage the e-brake whenever the driver gets out of the seat. Then require the fob to shift back into D or R. This eliminates the child or dog problem.
That's great for the Roadster. In the Prius, no power is consumed (by the creep) if your foot is firmly on the brakes. If you only lightly have them on it will use 500Wh of power at least.
I'd like the creep to be user selectable.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I just heard that it's available without creep - No creep yeah!
... Probably a user configurable option.
Now we just need to be able to tweak the Roadster.
... Probably a user configurable option.
Now we just need to be able to tweak the Roadster.
I think creep should be disabled as long as the brake pedal is depressed. It would allow for easy rolling through parking lots and such, while still allowing for smooth complete stops, no unnecissary energy consumption while stopped, and it would ensure the driver holds the brake pedal, keeping the brake lights on at traffic lights and such.
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