AutoPilot Crash today-Tesla response less than stellar?

[mblakele]

During my test drive the salesman had me engage TACC on a divided highway with stop lights. Twice as I approached cars stopped at a light the car began to brake and then stopped braking, forcing me to aggressively brake in order to avoid hitting the stopped car in front of me. The salesman's explanation was that it was a new car that hadn't been driven enough yet for the TACC to work properly. He said it typically takes 2 - 3 weeks of normal driving before TACC, auto-steer and self-parking accumulate enough experience to start working properly.

This was on a car with AP1 and 8.0 firmware.

I think your sales rep was repeating a confused idea of calibration of the ultrasonic sensors for autopark. That is supposed to take a little while.

My experience with a new AP(1) car: I took delivery of the car with 11 miles on it. I drove about five miles on surface streets to a limited-access freeway, merged into traffic and engaged AP. It was fine, even when the traffic turned to stop and go in light rain. I monitored AP closely, but I only had to take over when there was merging traffic. That's always a concern with AP(1), because of its limited sensors.

I would not have trusted AP with traffic lights then, and I still wouldn't. AP(1) doesn't support traffic lights, and they create excellent opportunities for mode errors in human drivers.

 

[theslimshadyist]

Very sorry to hear of this experience, especially because it impacted your buying decision. However, I want to thank everyone here who chimed in to share their experiences & information on AP, TACC, FCW, etc. I now have a much better understanding of the capabilities and differences across these technologies.

 

[brianman]

there is a setting where you can adjust the reaction time... early, standard, late.. i think i actually saw that this am while messing with my settings.

The setting affects FCW not AEB. FYI. OK?

 

[ev-now]

The setting affects FCW not AEB. FYI. OK?

It's fascinating to me that many owners are unclear on the different systems in play - so it's not surprising there is confusion for non or new owners - which I will be one of very soon now. So AEB is a 25mph reduction in closing speed once collisions is considered inevitable. This means that the car does not have a "Don't do that!" setting for reversing, or forward maneuvering at low speed - just regular beeping for obstruction proximity - correct?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

It's fascinating to me that many owners are unclear on the different systems in play - so it's not surprising there is confusion for non or new owners - which I will be one of very soon now. So AEB is a 25mph reduction in closing speed once collisions is considered inevitable. This means that the car does not have a "Don't do that!" setting for reversing, or forward maneuvering at low speed - just regular beeping for obstruction proximity - correct?

There is a ton of confusion not just among Tesla owners, but on all the cars that offer active safety systems. I actually find it a bit appalling, and I hope to see some standardization.

 

[thimel]

It's fascinating to me that many owners are unclear on the different systems in play - so it's not surprising there is confusion for non or new owners - which I will be one of very soon now. So AEB is a 25mph reduction in closing speed once collisions is considered inevitable. This means that the car does not have a "Don't do that!" setting for reversing, or forward maneuvering at low speed - just regular beeping for obstruction proximity - correct?

Correct.

 

[u00mem9]

Despite all the nonsense in this thread, the dealer's insurance will pay for the car. You likely didn't even sign anything anyway, but even if you (your friend) did, an agent of the dealer instructed the driver the car would handle the situation. Done deal.

I find it interesting that the salesman misunderstood the system capability. Stopped cars are about 50/50 with autopilot. Was this guy on his 3rd day of work?

 

[Az_Rael]

You likely didn't even sign anything anyway

I had to sign some sort of release when I test drove. It was on an iPad. I am embarrassed to admit I didn't really read it, but they do make you sign something (or at least they do at the Burbank store)


I do think the sales associate should have kept an eye on the AP status and seen earlier that the car hadn't locked on the stopped vehicle. I wouldn't expect someone test driving to be able to parse that screen, but I would also expect someone test driving to brake for a stopped vehicle when they would normally brake and not overly trust the computer. I overrode AP several times during my test drive when it did things I was not expecting/would not have done myself.

 

[Max*]

You likely didn't even sign anything anyway

I like to give advice without ever test driving the car too.

 

[Max*]

I had to sign some sort of release when I test drove. It was on an iPad. I am embarrassed to admit I didn't really read it, but they do make you sign something (or at least they do at the Burbank store)

I skimmed it, don't remember the details.

IIRC, I test drove 3 times, and each time had to sign the waiver (same store, same owner advocate). They also scan your drivers license with the ipad.

 

[schonelucht]

Here's the short story: your friend rear ended a car on a clear day. Judgement: your friend is at fault. No matter what kind of vehicle was being used or its capabilities or lack thereof. I think people have woken up now about this being the reality of autopilot cars in today's world.

We have no less than three testimonies of independent users in this thread alone about salespeople encouraging irresponsible behavior while test driving. That's enough for me to believe OP's story and if OP is telling the truth, then the salesperson was at fault. Morally for sure and I'll let the lawyers figure out legal responsibilities. OP 's friend didn't get a ticket nor was he asked about his insurance so I guess Tesla and the police agree. Given that three different testimonies about presumably three different salesperson all show the same behavior it is likely that Tesla is lacking in it's instructions towards its sales staff.

 

[u00mem9]

I like to give advice without ever test driving the car too.

? I couldn't quite follow your sarcasm. If I signed something on an iPad, I don't remember the details. If the OP signed something, I doubt his friend, who was at the wheel when the crash occured, also signed.

My point is: it doesn't matter. If you think the OP's insurance is paying for the car, you are mistaken.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

? I couldn't quite follow your sarcasm. If I signed something on an iPad, I don't remember the details. If the OP signed something, I doubt his friend, who was at the wheel when the crash occured, also signed.

Usually anyone who plans on driving during the test drive has to provide their license and sign the waiver.

 

[Max*]

? I couldn't quite follow your sarcasm. If I signed something on an iPad, I don't remember the details. If the OP signed something, I doubt his friend, who was at the wheel when the crash occured, also signed.

My point is: it doesn't matter. If you think the OP's insurance is paying for the car, you are mistaken.

Everyone who I talked to (both locally and other states) have signed their life away on the ipad. There was a thread (here? maybe on TM) of a person (maybe more than one) walking away because they actually read the agreement on the ipad, and didn't like what it stated.

So I wouldn't throw out a comment stating that "You [your friend] likely didn't even sign anything anyway", when most (all?) people do sign in order to test drive. They also scan your license with that ipad.


As for the last part, yes, I agree, I'm pretty sure the Tesla insurance will be picking this up, and not the OPs/his friends. Time will tell.

 

[W0QR]

I think this is a known issue. The car was pointed UP..nose UP. The radar was overshooting the stopped car. If we could look we would not have seen the car in front painted by the radar.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Every manual I've seen for one warns that it may not stop for a car in this situation, and my understanding is that Tesla does this better than most others. Do you have information indicating otherwise?

Only what I've seen from commercials, like Subaru and Volvo, showing the car come to a complete stop short of a solid wall. Seems like a Tesla won't do that, right?

 

[Saghost]

Only what I've seen from commercials, like Subaru and Volvo, showing the car come to a complete stop short of a solid wall. Seems like a Tesla won't do that, right?

I guess we'll find out when Tesla gets around to making commercials...

 

[mhan00]

Actually, that is not true. The radar signal scatter return is based on the size of the object and its reflected angle, a larger object will have a stronger reflected signal than a smaller one. A radar would never confuse a soda can with a car.

Same thing with an overhead sign, unless you are driving up a hill towards an overhead sign, the radar would pass underneath it. If you are pointed at an angle to the sign, most of the energy is scatted back at an angle, vs an object like a car would scatter back towards the source.

"Because of this, the standard approach for car radar is to start by ignoring anything that isn't moving"

Yet again, you are incorrect. A radar tracking an object at highway speed in front of you sees an object traveling the same speed as you are as stationary. What is why police radars have to be tied to the cars speedometer or an external source like GPS, it has to have a reference or a police radar measuring the car in front of would be going at close to 0 miles per hour.

The problem with the system is not the radar, it is going to be with the camera. Cameras can track and measure the velocity of objects moving across them, they have a very hard time figuring out if an object coming towards them is stationary or moving, and filter out which objects are supposed to be stationary like signs and which are supposed to be moving like other cars.

Dude, what the car sees as stationary wouldn't be an object in front of it where the distance doesn't change, the car would know that means it is actually something that is moving at the same rate of speed as it is. An object that is getting pinged by the radar as approaching at close to the velocity of the car is what the car sees as a stationary object. How you don't get this when you specifically mention police radars being adjusted to take into account the police cruiser's own velocity is a little mind boggling. As others have mentioned, the car ignores stationary objects because they could be a variety of different objects (road sign, soda can, trash can, even a car in the next lane that is stopped on a curved road, or a car that is stopped in a lane over while you're changing lanes) and relies on driver input. At a determined distance where it's clear the object isn't any of these, that's when AEB kicks in for cars with only radar, which is why most (all?) manufacturers have language in their safety system descriptions that the AEB mitigates crashes and generally make no mention of it completely preventing them. Cars with cameras can use image processing to supplement the radar, but even then it isnt super reliable as of yet.

 

[mhan00]

Only what I've seen from commercials, like Subaru and Volvo, showing the car come to a complete stop short of a solid wall. Seems like a Tesla won't do that, right?

Commercials are different than real life. When was the last time you got a hamburger from McDonald's or Carl's Jr that looked as perfect as the one on TV? Have you ever had a super sexy stewardess walk up to you in slow motion with swaying hips and present you with a six dollar burger while "Like a G6" was playing (if you have, then you're a lucky bastard)? Commercials try to present products in the best possible light. I'm sure there are situations where those cars can stop in time to prevent damage, but I'm also sure that as of yet there are still situations where the car will still crash since the safety systems arent perfect yet. Not coincidentally, that is the same as the Tesla where you have some people on reddit and forums talking about how their Tesla stopped in time or moved itself slightly to avoid a side swipe while others haven't been so lucky. The tech and software isn't at the point yet where it can handle all (or even most) situations with aplomb.

Speaking for myself and my new Volt, I've had situations where the AEB alerted me when it was completely unwarranted - car stopped in a turning lane while I was in the next lane over, for example - and situations where it would have been helpful if I actually was distracted. I've also had situations where it doesn't go off when I thought it should have (based on my 'Far' setting). The tech isn't perfect yet.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Commercials are different than real life. When was the last time you got a hamburger from McDonald's or Carl's Jr that looked as perfect as the one on TV?

Never mind the last time, the only time I've ever had that happen was when I went to a McDonald's in Tokyo. The food that came out looked _exactly_ like the picture on the menu. Was really noteworthy.