I doubt Tesla is going to bail, they are just trying to iron out some edge cases right now. That's fine, and they should. However, Tesla absolutely needs to change the wording on their web site. I deal with representations every day in my line of work, and at least in my business, if I publish a misleading advertisement about myself or my services, I will have to answer for it.
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I doubt Tesla is going to bail, they are just trying to iron out some edge cases right now. That's fine, and they should. However, Tesla absolutely needs to change the wording on their web site. I deal with representations every day in my line of work, and at least in my business, if I publish a misleading advertisement about myself or my services, I will have to answer for it.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I've wondered about this too. How can you release hardware and make promises about it without the software actually working with the hardware? That makes no sense to me. Boy will there be a price to pay if this turns out to be the case. The longer this fiasco goes on, the more this will appear to be the case.
The amount of people who think this "issue" is a fiasco can be counted on the fingers of one hand. There is no suggestion from any reputable source that says anything about needing new sensors. They are simply working on the software. There was no definitive launch date. How about exercising a bit of patience and waiting?
travwill
Active Member
Yeah, from a legal view the website is TOTALLY misleading to new customers or even current ones.
1) Site states "
2) "Lane Changing - Automatically change lanes by tapping the turn signal." To me again, sounds like the MS already does this when reading.
3) "Autopilot Parking - Model S helps you find a parking spot and automatically parks in it. In the city, it will notify you when it finds a parallel parking spot, then control steering, acceleration and deceleration to back smoothly into it. When approaching a Supercharger station, Model S automatically parks in an open stall. Model S will even park itself in your garage at home."
Again, this is worded present tense as it "already does" these actions. Totally false advertising here. No "it will" or "in future"... instead it is all "it parks" "it does", etc.
4) The safety warning stuff mentioned is only thing we do have, so ok there, yeah, something in your blind spot, woo hoo!
5) "Autopilot - With Autopilot activated, Model S automatically follows the road, steering around curves and varying its speed to match the flow of traffic." Again, the self steering and auto following the road is worded as "MS does this already" style. Very bad!
It just seems as this alls stems from the "will be made available over time" and "6.2 currently added" wording at start. Instead Tesla should have a clear list of features that exist and don't at this point. And they better live up to the promises above, or we should be getting some level of our $2500 funding back (not to be decadent all by Tesla) for not delivering on these promises.
My take.
1) Site states "
Autopilot features are progressively enabled over time with software updates. The current software version is 6.2
, adding automatic emergency braking and blind spot warning."
Key word here is adding, that version 6.2 does. It sort of assumes that everything else is available and that is what is being added as of now in latest release. Doesn't say flat out what is and isn't. This is due to the "does" tense in everything else like 2 & 3 & 5 for example:, adding automatic emergency braking and blind spot warning."
2) "Lane Changing - Automatically change lanes by tapping the turn signal." To me again, sounds like the MS already does this when reading.
3) "Autopilot Parking - Model S helps you find a parking spot and automatically parks in it. In the city, it will notify you when it finds a parallel parking spot, then control steering, acceleration and deceleration to back smoothly into it. When approaching a Supercharger station, Model S automatically parks in an open stall. Model S will even park itself in your garage at home."
Again, this is worded present tense as it "already does" these actions. Totally false advertising here. No "it will" or "in future"... instead it is all "it parks" "it does", etc.
4) The safety warning stuff mentioned is only thing we do have, so ok there, yeah, something in your blind spot, woo hoo!
5) "Autopilot - With Autopilot activated, Model S automatically follows the road, steering around curves and varying its speed to match the flow of traffic." Again, the self steering and auto following the road is worded as "MS does this already" style. Very bad!
It just seems as this alls stems from the "will be made available over time" and "6.2 currently added" wording at start. Instead Tesla should have a clear list of features that exist and don't at this point. And they better live up to the promises above, or we should be getting some level of our $2500 funding back (not to be decadent all by Tesla) for not delivering on these promises.
My take.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I used "fiasco" regarding the overall issue -- not regarding whether more sensors are needed. I have no idea about that -- only speculation.
A ton of people think the delay in autopilot is a "fiasco" and you are seriously mistaken if you think they "can be counted on the fingers of one hand."
Electricfan
Active Member
Yeah, I agree with this. Disclosure: I don't have AP h/w so not waiting (im)patiently.
IMO the Model S normal driving advantages are so incredibly advanced over other cars, Tesla shouldn't need to push the envelope by marketing to leave the impression everything is there now. Instead, I don't think they'd lose many sales at all by explicitly listing what works now, and what's coming. They don't even have to admit some (few) things don't actually work all that well (Multi-stop Nav, I'm looking at you). While I'm at it, another unplug asking them to make the selling price CLEAR, *THEN* they can display the "after gas savings" etc.
Whew. And that paragraph pretty well sums up all my beefs about Tesla. To keep this post short, I didn't include all the things I like/love!
There's two things that are currently stopping me from purchasing our second Model S:
- is the P90DL going to be all Elon says, or will it end up like the P85D? Notably, what's the trap speed at the end of the 1/4 mile?
- what's the state of autopilot and will they actually deliver what they suggested?
When we bought our first Model S in 2013 we got shafted on a few things - fog lights are actually on our Monroney but the car doesn't have them, and the hard drive storage of songs never materialized. I don't really care about either.
The actual performance of the P90DL - at highway speeds - is also going to be, for me, a serious concern vs. an E63 wagon. But I'll keep this conversation mostly on the AP ;-)
I do care about AP. Massively. My E350's lane keeping bounces around slightly less than the Volvo video but even with the bouncing it makes a huge difference on my commute. The car still requires steering but the involvement is significantly less - it's minor corrections vs. constant attention. I'm not looking forward to downgrading to something that doesn't have lane keeping.
scott jones
Member
So as it stands now, if I buy a Tesla I won't know if it has any of the features stated by reading their ordering website!
As a matter of fact, given all the present tense I will assume it DOES have those self driving features and that's bull****!
Not everyone orders from a Tesla store, nor did they talk to a representative, Who will hopefully tell them the truth.
nor does every buyer read this forum, and customers should not have to to know the real story.
The current website order listing is 100% misleading. I never thought I would say this about Tesla, but there are no if's and's or buts about it, it's just blatantly wrong. It should not be worded in present tense! It's not a mistake it's not a matter of opinion, there's no gray area. As it's written, it's just an outright lie and yes I said it.
Scott
As a matter of fact, given all the present tense I will assume it DOES have those self driving features and that's bull****!
Not everyone orders from a Tesla store, nor did they talk to a representative, Who will hopefully tell them the truth.
nor does every buyer read this forum, and customers should not have to to know the real story.
The current website order listing is 100% misleading. I never thought I would say this about Tesla, but there are no if's and's or buts about it, it's just blatantly wrong. It should not be worded in present tense! It's not a mistake it's not a matter of opinion, there's no gray area. As it's written, it's just an outright lie and yes I said it.
Scott
If Elon had said back in Jan/Feb: Wow, we thought we were close but we're running into problems on the tiny details, we are probably several months out from a production release. Yada Yada Yada
I think everyone of us would be upset, but would completely sympathize.
I think everyone of us would be upset, but would completely sympathize.
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Cyclone
Cyclonic Member ((.oO))
Exactly. Transparency in the communications. Everything I've seen/experienced with Tesla always harks back to a communications problem. Even in this case, an official statement stating as you put it would go to great lengths towards goodwill of us owners.
gizmoboy
Member
Agreed. There's always a question of what he knew when. Sometimes team members aren;t willing to give bad news to a demanding boss (or any kind of boss). They may have told him it was nearly ready to pacify him, and he treated it as truth.
He may also have made these statements to "light a fire" under his team (burns the ships when the army lands).
No way to know from the outside.
As for AP, it seems to me that these features exist in other cars with comparable hardware, so I believe it'll get done eventually, provided Tesla actually sees the benefit of finishing this before starting something else (MX, M3).
I'm personally on the fence on MS until I see what extra kit comes out with the MX and whether/when it'll get rolled into the MS line.
I drove a P85D for a day this week and was pretty impressed with the TACC (compared to my infiniti) and really enjoyed the ride. The Insane power was fun, but I neither need nor value it enough to pay for it, so it'll likely be a loaded 70D for me... but I fully expect to see 7.0 before ordering.
I cannot believe I was the only one that reasonably knew/felt, just from reading what was displayed on the TM website (when the P85D was first put up), that the AP features would take some time to come to fruition. After all, it stood to reason that Tesla was a startup and had a lot of growing pains to get through. Couple that with the early missteps TM had (many that were discussed on this board) and I just can't help but be somewhat surprised about the reactions by some. I'm self admittedly not the sharpest tool in the shed, but heck it seemed rather obvious to me that it most likely would take a good while. Hence, one of the reasons I didn't upgrade. My view is simple, if the car doesn't have what I want now to justify the purchase, then I won't buy it. Has to be ready to go the moment I take delivery. Implications and vague promises are just that.
I am not suggesting that TM communicated as clearly as they could have. I certainly can empathize about the lack of communication and disappointment some may feel. But on the other side, I do think some are taking these issues and going overboard. Suggesting a nefarious motive, maybe just to vent, or worse, for a possible personal gain. It's even more incredible to watch people speculate, work each other into near frenzy about things (like new hardware required, etc, etc.) that haven't even happened yet.
I believe Tesla will eventually get AP out in some form. It's probably related to technical issues and trying to be covered on the legal/insurance side.
For those disappointed, frustrated, I'm sorry that TM hasn't met the expectations that you had.
So now what, class action lawsuit? Constant complaining. Your choice. I would suggest something more productive. Get a group letter, outlining the issues as you see them, have all like minded Tesla customers sign it and send it (email, paper version fed x) to Tesla. I think that might have a chance of getting some real feedback.
I am not suggesting that TM communicated as clearly as they could have. I certainly can empathize about the lack of communication and disappointment some may feel. But on the other side, I do think some are taking these issues and going overboard. Suggesting a nefarious motive, maybe just to vent, or worse, for a possible personal gain. It's even more incredible to watch people speculate, work each other into near frenzy about things (like new hardware required, etc, etc.) that haven't even happened yet.
I believe Tesla will eventually get AP out in some form. It's probably related to technical issues and trying to be covered on the legal/insurance side.
For those disappointed, frustrated, I'm sorry that TM hasn't met the expectations that you had.
So now what, class action lawsuit? Constant complaining. Your choice. I would suggest something more productive. Get a group letter, outlining the issues as you see them, have all like minded Tesla customers sign it and send it (email, paper version fed x) to Tesla. I think that might have a chance of getting some real feedback.
kuttakamina
Member
It is my opinion, as a Tesla owner, that this muddy messaging, the ridiculous delays are absolutely inexcusable, and utter ********.
Had I known that the delays would be to this extent, I would have not bought a Tesla. And I would suggest every potential customer to take note also.
Given a car's shelf life of around 6-8 years, taking a full year to deliver functionality that is being advertised as current, is just not right.
Additionally, specific timelines have been bragged about, and have been blown off more than once.
However, before we mention lawsuits etc, I would suggest, that like me, if you feel discontentment, provide Tesla feedback directly, publicly, and privately.
1. Tweet to them on @teslamotors and @elonmusk, let them know that you are not happy about this.
2. Get in your car, press the voice record button, and say "Note: Please release autopilot immediately".
3. Write them a letter, or an email.
4. If anyone has better suggestions on how to provide Tesla feedback, please let us know.
If giving them feedback does not work, approach BBB.
Explain to them that specific timelines were promised, money was paid, and that Tesla failed to deliver. Have the government investigate them.
You as a consumer have more power than you think. This would be far more effective than a lawsuit anyway.
Tesla cares deeply about their sales, and customer satisfaction reputation. Let them NOT take pride on what is not true (if it is not true).
The service centers are far overloaded anyway, let them pay some attention to existing customers, before being 'production constrained'.
Some balance is good! It's good for all of us in the long run.
Also provide your feedback to consumer reports, immediately. Tweet them at @consumerreports.
Also, make this thread visible to autoblog.com, tweet them at @therealautoblog
My point is, if there is discontentment, the right thing to do would be to give the other party the opportunity to make amends by giving them feedback directly, privately and publicly.
I don't know if the majority is dissatisfied with how Autopilot has been handled, but provide the feedback and we shall find out!
Oh and don't feel guilty demanding for what you have paid.
The lawsuit talk is just immature.
Had I known that the delays would be to this extent, I would have not bought a Tesla. And I would suggest every potential customer to take note also.
Given a car's shelf life of around 6-8 years, taking a full year to deliver functionality that is being advertised as current, is just not right.
Additionally, specific timelines have been bragged about, and have been blown off more than once.
However, before we mention lawsuits etc, I would suggest, that like me, if you feel discontentment, provide Tesla feedback directly, publicly, and privately.
1. Tweet to them on @teslamotors and @elonmusk, let them know that you are not happy about this.
2. Get in your car, press the voice record button, and say "Note: Please release autopilot immediately".
3. Write them a letter, or an email.
4. If anyone has better suggestions on how to provide Tesla feedback, please let us know.
If giving them feedback does not work, approach BBB.
Explain to them that specific timelines were promised, money was paid, and that Tesla failed to deliver. Have the government investigate them.
You as a consumer have more power than you think. This would be far more effective than a lawsuit anyway.
Tesla cares deeply about their sales, and customer satisfaction reputation. Let them NOT take pride on what is not true (if it is not true).
The service centers are far overloaded anyway, let them pay some attention to existing customers, before being 'production constrained'.
Some balance is good! It's good for all of us in the long run.
Also provide your feedback to consumer reports, immediately. Tweet them at @consumerreports.
Also, make this thread visible to autoblog.com, tweet them at @therealautoblog
My point is, if there is discontentment, the right thing to do would be to give the other party the opportunity to make amends by giving them feedback directly, privately and publicly.
I don't know if the majority is dissatisfied with how Autopilot has been handled, but provide the feedback and we shall find out!
Oh and don't feel guilty demanding for what you have paid.
The lawsuit talk is just immature.
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Canuck
Well-Known Member
I agree it's not right but I don't like discouraging people from buying a Tesla because of this issue. We have future generations to consider here (includind my kids) and Tesla is a huge part of getting our future back on track (if it's not too late already) especially considering how much vehicles contribute to CO2 in our atmosphere. Tesla is a new startup and we can't expect perfection. Of course, what is being done is wrong, but please don't throw the baby out with the bath water!
Plus, I absolutely love my non autopilot, with no sensors, Tesla -- much better than any ICE with auto pilot.
kuttakamina
Member
The 2016 Volt will save PLENTY of CO2, and it's 1/3rd the price of a Tesla thereby putting it in the reach of more people.
Also the 2016 Volt has TACC, blind spot warning, and it has autopilot.
I completely agree with you regarding there is a bigger picture to consider.
But perhaps some competion, checks and balances, are good for Tesla.
I feel if we can solve the challenge of climate change with capitalistic ideas and keeping the companies honest and competitive, it will turn out for the better for everyone.
Oh and I like my Tesla too, but had I know about the Autopilot issue, I would have saved 30K and gotten a CPO.
Cyclone
Cyclonic Member ((.oO))
Particularly troubling coming from a less than month owner. As more "mainstream" buyers vs. early adopters are buying Teslas (and I'm not flagging kutta as either), Tesla satisfaction will go down quickly as such buyers will be disgusted at the misleading impression and wait on the rollout.
I agree with your other points on how to let Tesla know how you feel but this seems like it would just waste their time. I'm sure this goes to the software team working on the Model S but I'd imagine they already know Autopilot is a big priority and these kinds of messages would just drown out other bug reports people are submitting.
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