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AutoPilot track record is great so far

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Keep in mind that AP has no pedestrian detection right now, no ability to see debris on the road, and no ability to recognize manual traffic control (ie construction zone, police officer, etc). All things you can do easily if you're watching what you're doing.

Why doesn't it, though? It should at least see a tire laying on the road in front of you. It can't be that hard to recognize. In my opinion they shouldn't have released it like it is. I hope in future versions it does these exact things you mention and at least beeps and tells you to take over, if it can't drive itself appropriately. I'm amazed no serious accidents have happened with it yet. Maybe I'll be the first. But they sold me a car that steers itself, and as far as I'm concerned that means it has the responsibility not to kill me.
 
When I drive I'm either driving fast and focused or slower and less focused. When less focused I have a long history of doing other light tasks. IMO this is a lot safer to do than it was pre autopilot. I have not, however, been willing to completely not pay attention to the road.
 
Why doesn't it, though? It should at least see a tire laying on the road in front of you. It can't be that hard to recognize.

Nobody said those things couldn't be detected. In fact many of them can with the current chipset (not all). However, currently the system does not do anything to evade such obstructions, nor has Tesla ever claimed that it does.

In my opinion they shouldn't have released it like it is.

So don't release any driver assistance features until we have full autonomy? In the end, your opinion doesn't matter. Don't use the system as if it's more capable than it is. In fact, if you ever end up killing someone by abusing Autopilot, this forum post would probably be enough to put you away for a long time. Point is, if you can't use it with its limitations in mind, don't use it at all. You're putting innocent lives at risk.

I hope in future versions it does these exact things you mention and at least beeps and tells you to take over, if it can't drive itself appropriately.

With your eyes and mind in a book, even if it beeps then by the time you recognize the beep, look up, and comprehend the situation it will be too late. Almost guaranteed.

But they sold me a car that steers itself, and as far as I'm concerned that means it has the responsibility not to kill me.

Are you for real?
 
Why doesn't it, though? It should at least see a tire laying on the road in front of you. It can't be that hard to recognize.

It's hard to recognize a tire with a single camera (no depth perception). If it had multiple cameras or a very very expensive LIDAR, sure, you can recognize road debris.

In my opinion they shouldn't have released it like it is. I hope in future versions it does these exact things you mention and at least beeps and tells you to take over, if it can't drive itself appropriately. I'm amazed no serious accidents have happened with it yet. Maybe I'll be the first.

They released it because on the autonomous scale it's level 2, the next step up from level 1 (which is TACC). But not quite level 3 (which is highway autonomous).

As to why? That gets into philosophical discussions about Google (aiming to release Level 4 right away, full autonomous) and all the other manufacturers giving incremental improvements to autonomous driving. Which will save more lives? People are stupid and will do stupid things with AP, but at the same time if AP saves more lives than it takes, then it's probably a good thing,

But they sold me a car that steers itself, and as far as I'm concerned that means it has the responsibility not to kill me.

You are not correct. They did sell you a car that can steer itself, but the car does not have the responsibility of not killing you.

They also sold you a car which you have full responsibility for. Yes, it can steer itself, but they never once advertised it as autonomous driving.

Their advertising could have been clearer, I can see where the confusion comes from, but they never once told you "feel free to read a book while AP is on, you're safe".
 
I was using autopilot yesterday on beltway 8 in Houston when three cars had a pile-up in the lane to my left. It was bumper to bumper, everybody was going about 75 mph, and suddenly traffic slowed (normal occurrence during rush hour). I was in the middle lane and had the distance set to 7, so I looked up when my car started slowing. I saw the three cars slam into each other.
So you were looking down reading a book while the car was on AP going 75mph on a crowded freeway.
You can make all the noise you want about how you paid for AP so you don't have to pay any attention to the road. But you are using AP in a way that Tesla clearly and specifically states not to, as others have pointed out.
Because you are being completely irresponsible, you are endangering the lives of other drivers around you. When your Tesla is in an accident because of your irresponsible behavior, people could die, Tesla AP could have additional restrictions added to it, and progress towards further improvements in AP could be jeopardized.
Yes, all of that because of your irresponsible behavior, because you want to read a book while sitting in your car going 75mph.
Your behavior is indefensible.
 
What you or I think isn't important. What will matter is what the court says the first time somebody dies in an autopilot related accident. I don't think that will go well for Tesla. Again, based on what I know now, I don't think they should have released this version. But its what we have, so we'll have to live with it.

Sorry, but Tesla over-sold "auto pilot", based on my experience anyway. If you don't agree, good for you, you're entitled to your opinion.
 
Why doesn't it, though? It should at least see a tire laying on the road in front of you. It can't be that hard to recognize. In my opinion they shouldn't have released it like it is. I hope in future versions it does these exact things you mention and at least beeps and tells you to take over, if it can't drive itself appropriately. I'm amazed no serious accidents have happened with it yet. Maybe I'll be the first. But they sold me a car that steers itself, and as far as I'm concerned that means it has the responsibility not to kill me.

I guess I suspected there were people like this out there but I am always surprised to encounter one. Amazing!

Gonna do what he wants to do no matter that it might kill an innocent person or cost the rest of us a crap load of time and money.

Darwin Award!

Maybe we should encourage him. (Sarcasm)
 
Electricfan believes the current version is not good enough and should not have been released.. and yet he has full confidence and staking his life on it to the extent he is prepared to take the eyes off and read a book. Trolling? :)
 
Why doesn't it, though? It should at least see a tire laying on the road in front of you. It can't be that hard to recognize. In my opinion they shouldn't have released it like it is. I hope in future versions it does these exact things you mention and at least beeps and tells you to take over, if it can't drive itself appropriately. I'm amazed no serious accidents have happened with it yet. Maybe I'll be the first. But they sold me a car that steers itself, and as far as I'm concerned that means it has the responsibility not to kill me.
people need to realize that AP is an aid to driving it is NOT fully autonomous driving
 
Electricfan, thank you for your honesty and reporting of the incident! While we would all like all the drivers around us to to be aware and in control I see people reading, writing, texting and calling with hand held phones every day-with no form of autopilot engaged!
 
My phone - I was reading a book. (in Kindle app)

I appreciate your honesty, but ...

*facepalm*

With that being said the biggest factor in these types of crashes is limited following distances combined with driver inattention. You had a massive following distance, and also massive driver inattention (a book). Sure you have autopilot, but it can't see everything and it certainly can't see ahead of the car in front of you.

Technically you did crash (one part of a car hit a part your car), and one could say it was the result of autopilot since your situational awareness was non-existent.

But, autopilot isn't to blame because Level II autonomous driving (which is what this is) puts 100% of the responsibility on the driver.

What makes this case interesting is it's exactly what people were afraid of, yet ultimately you were better off with autopilot. If you didn't have autopilot you'd be driving too close along with everyone else (assuming you're an average driver), and you'd probably be texting. You would have crashed just like the three people in front of you did.

So autopilot saved you, and at the same time it was all autopilots fault for the "accident".
 
Why doesn't it, though? It should at least see a tire laying on the road in front of you. It can't be that hard to recognize. In my opinion they shouldn't have released it like it is. I hope in future versions it does these exact things you mention and at least beeps and tells you to take over, if it can't drive itself appropriately. I'm amazed no serious accidents have happened with it yet. Maybe I'll be the first. But they sold me a car that steers itself, and as far as I'm concerned that means it has the responsibility not to kill me.
You need to read the dialogs you tap "OK" on. Especially when enabling a clearly labelled "BETA" feature. Especially for technology that is so new that only a handful of consumer cars have it. Obviously you did not.
 
I appreciate your honesty, but ...

*facepalm*

With that being said the biggest factor in these types of crashes is limited following distances combined with driver inattention. You had a massive following distance, and also massive driver inattention (a book). Sure you have autopilot, but it can't see everything and it certainly can't see ahead of the car in front of you.

Technically you did crash (one part of a car hit a part your car), and one could say it was the result of autopilot since your situational awareness was non-existent.

But, autopilot isn't to blame because Level II autonomous driving (which is what this is) puts 100% of the responsibility on the driver.

What makes this case interesting is it's exactly what people were afraid of, yet ultimately you were better off with autopilot. If you didn't have autopilot you'd be driving too close along with everyone else (assuming you're an average driver), and you'd probably be texting. You would have crashed just like the three people in front of you did.

So autopilot saved you, and at the same time it was all autopilots fault for the "accident".

I guess I wasn't clear about the accident I saw. I was reading my book, the car was driving on autopilot. The car slowed pretty hard - that's normal for Houston traffic, but I always look up when it does. At that point I saw the accident happen in the lane to my left, not my lane. And as soon as they hit each other I put my foot on the brake and that gave me control of the car. There was nowhere I could go, though. I was in the middle lane. Couldn't go left or I'd join the accident. Couldn't go right as the freeway was full, cars in all three lanes. So, staying in my lane was all I could do. I didn't know where the cars were going to go and I didn't want to get involved, but I was also afraid of braking too hard and getting rear-ended myself, so I braked but not foot all the way to the floor. I wasn't trying to stop, just put a little distance between me and the cars bouncing around in the left lane. Anyway, because I slowed I ended up going through the mess they made in the road - glass and metal everywhere. That's what got my right rear tire. Nothing was autopilots fault, and I never said it was. Not sure how that got interpreted that way, but sorry if I wasn't clear.

I made my original post talking about the accident because I thought it showed a good response by autopilot, whatever you think of how I was driving my car. The car didn't swerve or do anything crazy, and slowed down as it should because the cars in front of me were slowing down. And the car gave me control back as soon as I hit the brake, so there was a smooth transition from autopilot to human control in an emergency situation, and it was seamless. I liked that and was very happy with how the car behaved.

But I'm by no means the only person disappointed with autopilot - you've all read the forum. Many people are also delighted with it. Its just not what I was expecting, and maybe that's my fault, but maybe Tesla over-sold it too. I think they did.

Tesla itself has emphasized this is beta software - a clear indication they don't think its good enough yet either. I'm hoping for a massive improvement in the software over the next year. In the meantime I'm using it as I want - its my car, my decision. I don't use it on back roads, or even 290 or other roads in Houston that aren't wide lanes and well marked. The beltway is the perfect place for it. So far its doing pretty well on the beltway. I wouldn't use it the way I am if I thought I was going to die, or kill someone else. Don't have a death wish at all. But I bought a car that Tesla said would steer itself, and I'm going to let it do that.

The Model S will control the brakes, acceleration, and steering, so the driver doesn't have to. Call that whatever you want. To me, its the same thing no matter what name you put on it. In court, if Tesla tries to argue "our car was in control of brakes, acceleration and steering at the time of the accident, but we're not responsible", well no judge or jury will buy it. But maybe I'm wrong. I think we're going to find out sooner or later.
 
I guess I wasn't clear about the accident I saw. I was reading my book, the car was driving on autopilot. The car slowed pretty hard - that's normal for Houston traffic, but I always look up when it does. At that point I saw the accident happen in the lane to my left, not my lane. And as soon as they hit each other I put my foot on the brake and that gave me control of the car. There was nowhere I could go, though. I was in the middle lane. Couldn't go left or I'd join the accident. Couldn't go right as the freeway was full, cars in all three lanes. So, staying in my lane was all I could do. I didn't know where the cars were going to go and I didn't want to get involved, but I was also afraid of braking too hard and getting rear-ended myself, so I braked but not foot all the way to the floor. I wasn't trying to stop, just put a little distance between me and the cars bouncing around in the left lane. Anyway, because I slowed I ended up going through the mess they made in the road - glass and metal everywhere. That's what got my right rear tire. Nothing was autopilots fault, and I never said it was. Not sure how that got interpreted that way, but sorry if I wasn't clear.

I made my original post talking about the accident because I thought it showed a good response by autopilot, whatever you think of how I was driving my car. The car didn't swerve or do anything crazy, and slowed down as it should because the cars in front of me were slowing down. And the car gave me control back as soon as I hit the brake, so there was a smooth transition from autopilot to human control in an emergency situation, and it was seamless. I liked that and was very happy with how the car behaved.

But I'm by no means the only person disappointed with autopilot - you've all read the forum. Many people are also delighted with it. Its just not what I was expecting, and maybe that's my fault, but maybe Tesla over-sold it too. I think they did.

Tesla itself has emphasized this is beta software - a clear indication they don't think its good enough yet either. I'm hoping for a massive improvement in the software over the next year. In the meantime I'm using it as I want - its my car, my decision. I don't use it on back roads, or even 290 or other roads in Houston that aren't wide lanes and well marked. The beltway is the perfect place for it. So far its doing pretty well on the beltway. I wouldn't use it the way I am if I thought I was going to die, or kill someone else. Don't have a death wish at all. But I bought a car that Tesla said would steer itself, and I'm going to let it do that.

The Model S will control the brakes, acceleration, and steering, so the driver doesn't have to. Call that whatever you want. To me, its the same thing no matter what name you put on it. In court, if Tesla tries to argue "our car was in control of brakes, acceleration and steering at the time of the accident, but we're not responsible", well no judge or jury will buy it. But maybe I'm wrong. I think we're going to find out sooner or later.

+1, good post. I really think some here overreact to anything even slightly different from their mindset.

I personally wouldn't read a book while AP is on but I also personally wouldn't write some of the over the top responses to you doing so.
 
In the meantime I'm using it as I want - its my car, my decision.
@Electricfan
Thought experiment. Suppose you have this exchange with your neighbor:
I love my new car. It has adaptive cruise control. I use it on my commute home every day. I don't even touch the brake or accelerator the whole way.
How many stoplights is that? Does the adaptive cruise control see and react to the stoplights?
It's like 7 stoplights, I take the ___ route. No, it doesn't see stoplights.

What would you say next?
 
The Model S will control the brakes, acceleration, and steering, so the driver doesn't have to. Call that whatever you want. To me, its the same thing no matter what name you put on it. In court, if Tesla tries to argue "our car was in control of brakes, acceleration and steering at the time of the accident, but we're not responsible", well no judge or jury will buy it. But maybe I'm wrong. I think we're going to find out sooner or later.

You couldn't possibly be more wrong with regards to your assessment. Tesla wouldn't have to argue a damn thing, YOU are FULLY RESPONSIBLE for ANYTHING that happens while behind the wheel of your car regardless of whether AP is engaged or not. Did you even read the disclaimer when you enabled AP in the first place, it's all there in black and white.

Your negligence is downright scary and exceedingly irresponsible. Quite frankly, you're the type of use case that Tesla should aggressively seek out and disable your AP functionality before you kill someone and do significant damage to Tesla's brand. Don't give me the "if Tesla didn't want this risk they shouldn't have enabled the software" nonsense. Tesla gave you access to a feature with specific terms and conditions that you are completely ignoring and that alone would be enough if I was Elon to pull AP from your car ASAP. All the media needs to see is "accident" "Tesla" "autopilot" and the story just writes itself from there.

Holy hell...

Jeff