Battery degradation after only one month?

[SFOTurtle]

Today after doing a partial range charge (where I surpassed 197 for the first time ever -- must be a fix in 4.4?), we took a road trip up to Sacto. On the return, I charged in Davis at the 70A station there. I hit 190 with a standard charge. It was probably 85 degrees F in Davis in the late afternoon.

Incidentally, on the return trip from Davis to my house is used 35 kWh for a distance of 112 miles and rarely went below 70 mph and frequently exceeded 80. My wife, about 50 pounds of cargo, and two empty baby seat bases were in tow. I think the 60s are secretly getting more range than most people realize.

 

[Zythryn]

Pretty much what I see at 5,300 miles. Consistently at 187 in much warmer weather now (saw 80s today).

The quick drop in the first 2-3 miles is par for the course; I wouldn't read anything into that. I see astronomical Wh/mile numbers (anywhere from 550 to 700+!) as I get going in the morning before it gradually drops back to 320 Wh/mile or lower.

Actually, he got a very slow drop.
Fred, did you notice what your Watts/mile were over the first few miles?
The rated range is exactly that... rated. If you use less energy, or more, that range can change. If your use a lot more or a lot less energy that range can drop quickly or extremely slowly.

 

[qphan79]

I called the Costa Mesa service center yesterday and had to explain again my issue. Once again, I was told that they would contact the service HQ in Fremont and call me back. Of course I don't get a call back. So I call again today. This time I insist on them making an appointment to bring the car in. Next appointment not available until May 8th. I expressed my frustration to the service rep about the delays and failure to call back as promised. Was given the same spiel about the usual factors that can affect range (temperature, driving behaviors, ideal va rated range, etc). Told them it was none of the above. Service tech checked in with the service manager...relayed to me that this is likely normal variance and that it was only a "1%" loss. I nearly blew a gasket!!! My range is now down to 181 miles..... I'm sorry, how is 8-9 miles out of 189-190 = 1%. That's over 4% degradation in just over 2 months! I had to call ownership experience to vent to them that I was sorely disappointed in my service and that I felt that they were not taking my concerns seriously. I feel like they are trying to avoid addressing my potential problematic battery. Not sure what else to so at this point.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Seems like 187 miles (in normal temperature and 93% SOC) is fairly common, so that's probably the baseline.

You'll probably be able to find out more if you can get the same data as hans did:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...ne-month/page3?p=312491&viewfull=1#post312491

 

[qwk]

I called the Costa Mesa service center yesterday and had to explain again my issue. Once again, I was told that they would contact the service HQ in Fremont and call me back. Of course I don't get a call back. So I call again today. This time I insist on them making an appointment to bring the car in. Next appointment not available until May 8th. I expressed my frustration to the service rep about the delays and failure to call back as promised. Was given the same spiel about the usual factors that can affect range (temperature, driving behaviors, ideal va rated range, etc). Told them it was none of the above. Service tech checked in with the service manager...relayed to me that this is likely normal variance and that it was only a "1%" loss. I nearly blew a gasket!!! My range is now down to 181 miles..... I'm sorry, how is 8-9 miles out of 189-190 = 1%. That's over 4% degradation in just over 2 months! I had to call ownership experience to vent to them that I was sorely disappointed in my service and that I felt that they were not taking my concerns seriously. I feel like they are trying to avoid addressing my potential problematic battery. Not sure what else to so at this point.

Dude, relax. The variance is probably normal and nothing to worry about. I get a variance that goes up and down, probably because of different factors like temp, for example. If you really get a drop over time, I'm sure Tesla will take care of it like they did with the roadster. If not, then you can post and vent on here.

 

[qphan79]

Variance implies that the range would go up and down...mine has been steadily declining. And I already mentioned that temperature is not an issue being in southern califronia and parked in a garage. Was told that twice already that this can be explained by driving behavior. Since my avg energy use is at 292wh/mile, then surely those drivers with >350 wh/mile averages are experiencing a much stronger "variance"! And I first called Tesla about this issue 5 weeks ago...and i followed up with at least 5 calls with NO return calls from them after taking my number down each time and promising a call back each time. So are you agreeing with the service manager that this is just a variance and that 181/189= 1%? Or do you think I am allowed to vent now?

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

This is not within any margin of error or variance. The rest of us are seeing 187-189 consistently. Given that it has declined further to 181, there's most certainly an issue here. qphan, try Elon or GeorgeB themselves.

 

[FredTMC]

This is not within any margin of error or variance. The rest of us are seeing 187-189 consistently. Given that it has declined further to 181, there's most certainly an issue here. qphan, try Elon or GeorgeB themselves.

I agree. That's too much loss. I get 187 after 6k mi

 

[stopcrazypp]

View attachment 20724

I notice in your picture the car is not done charging (4 minutes remaining) and that the SOC is lower than in the other pictures you posted. You really need to find a way to get the same data as hans in order to do a proper analysis. It may be that your car is at lower SOC than previously and nothing to do with any range variance.
If you look at han's screenshot he was at 182 miles of range at 90%SOC with 12 minutes remaining and 188 miles of range at 93%SOC immediately after charging.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...ne-month/page3?p=312491&viewfull=1#post312491

 

[bonnie]

Fwiw, I have seen that kind of variance with my Roadster. Usually balancing the pack takes care of the problem. qwk is correct in stating that Tesla has historically been good about addressing any battery pack issue. Think about it ... if there is a battery out there degrading faster than it should, the engineers want their hands on it so they can troubleshoot and identify the cause. That's invaluable information.

On the other hand, if I were a new customer, new to electric vehicles, had read all the fud that has been put out there about battery degradation - seeing a few miles disappear would probably freak me out. All I can tell you is that it doesn't sound like anything than normal variance. Annual maintenance includes a full battery inspection, cell by cell, sheet by sheet. If you have a bad sheet, they'll tell you and take care of it. I'd wait until annual inspection, unless you see it continue to go down at the same rate.

 

[qphan79]

Bonnie, it may or may not be a minor issue that is easily correctable once they bring it in to check it out. That's sort of the point though....it's taken me 5 weeks of calling just to even get an appointment scheduled for me to bring it in. And it wouldn't have taken 5 weeks if I hadn't exhibited alot of patience. I've been more than fair to them. They haven't done the courtesy of making good on numerous promises to call back and update me. And I felt like my intelligence was insulted by the service manager brushing off my concern as being only a "1% variance". This shouldn't be how you treat customers...

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

...Annual maintenance includes a full battery inspection, cell by cell, sheet by sheet. If you have a bad sheet, they'll tell you and take care of it. ...

Bonnie, have we heard this for sure? The couple of folks, such as dadaleus, who've hit 12,500 miles and got the "annual" done made no mention of that. It was the case for the Roadster probably but, I doubt it'll happen for the Model S given the limited time and resources at the busy Calif. service centers that are already stretched too thin. If they do do this, then, I'd definitely be getting my $600 worth.

Edit: Don't want to derail this thread by talking about the annual inspection too much but, no battery inspection business on that scale is included:

https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/na_tesla_service_plan_agreement_sp.pdf

The regularly scheduled maintenance inspections shall include the following (subject to change by Tesla at any time and without notice, in its sole discretion):
• Vehicle inspection;
• Replacement or repair at the time of inspection of normal maintenance items and wear and tear parts, excluding the Battery and tires;
• Wheel alignment*; and
• Tire rotation*.

 

[qphan79]

Bonnie, have we heard this for sure? The couple of folks, such as dadaleus, who've hit 12,500 miles and got the "annual" done made no mention of that. It was the case for the Roadster probably but, I doubt it'll happen for the Model S given the limited time and resources at the busy Calif. service centers that are already stretched too thin. If they do do this, then, I'd definitely be getting my $600 worth.

Wow, I thought the $600 annual service would at a minimum have a compete diagnostic look at the battery. What does it actually cover??

 

[SFOTurtle]

I've been reading posts from other 60 owners for months now, and OP is the only one to report low 180s consistently and certainly the only one to post that they have never reached high 180s. That is definitely not normal for a new 60 based on the dozens if not hundreds of posts from other owners. I would be just as concerned if it were my car.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Wow, I thought the $600 annual service would at a minimum have a compete diagnostic look at the battery. What does it actually cover??

Sorry, qphan, edited my post above with the details from the service plan agreement. Now, "Vehicle Inspection" could be a catch-all and may or may not include a detailed battery analysis. But, I'm planning on insisting on it for sure; I'd like to see some degree of detail on how the battery looks at my annual service visit; enough with the "secret sauce" bit about the battery

 

[nleggatt]

Ok ill toss my hat in the mix. Originally I was getting 306-308 on a stanrd charge. Just completed charging nd am at 300 km. I haven't seen higher than 300km since I updated from 4.2 to 4.4
9000km on car

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Ok ill toss my hat in the mix. Originally I was getting 306-308 on a stanrd charge. Just completed charging nd am at 300 km. I haven't seen higher than 300km since I updated from 4.2 to 4.4
9000km on car

Yup, that's roughly 187 miles with 4.4 and that's seemingly the healthy state for a 60.

 

[nleggatt]

Thanks gg I appreciate the feedback!

 

[qphan79]

Thanks SFOTurtle, I feel better knowing that fellow owners like you and gg can relate to my concerns. I try to be as knowledgable as I can before I started posting some random complaints. I think Tesla owners should support one another about legitimate concerns instead of immediately casting doubt onto those that do. Btw, I didnt say I never reached 180's but my range dropped to 187 within the first week. I thought that was normal because it was colder back on February and it was indeed a small variance at the time. But once it started to max out at 185 I became more concerned. Also, check out my picture I just took after getting home. Drove over 110 miles at an avg of 277 wh/mi. I still only have 70 miles of range left which totals 180 estimated to empty. At that energy use, I should easily be getting well over190 miles, right?

 

[tdiggity]

Fwiw, tesla will call you back if they feel like it is an issue. To them, it's not an issue, so no call back. Not acceptable, but do know that they'd call back in other circumstances.

Pack balancing was mentioned a few posts back. Along those same lines, have you tried charging at a slower rate from <50% soc?