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Battery Degradation question

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When I got my TesLogic it initially reported 14.3% degradation on my 2019 M3SR and I was unhappy about that. However, I have seen that number shift around a lot in response to temperature, Supercharging, how deeply I've discharged, how high I charged, and maybe the phases of the moon. The highest I've seen is the mid 14% range and lowest I've seen is around 9.8%. I think without doing some sort of formal discharge recharge type test, you can't really get a very accurate number.
 
So, I had 3 questions about the Teslafi chart:
• When I look at your data, I see 3 sections, the original flat section up to 39k, representing about 503k original range; then a current flat section from 52k onward, representing about 493k. Then, there's the gradual but steady drop from 39k to 52k. Any externalities that you can think of contributing to that drop?
View attachment 927150
• Two, that light green line represents only 4 other vehicles? Does that imply that there isn't a lot of datapoints in the Teslafi database?
• Three, your data, when compared to the "fleet" isn't included in the "fleet"?

1) original range was 507km. Teslafi calculates it by taking current range divided by SOC. As the SOC is rounded to whole numbers when teslafi gets it the teslafi calculated range jumps around about 5-10km and the highest values are still a little shy of the range I see at full charge.
During the first line/part you did mark, I always did see 507km at the full charges.
Scan my tesla also reported the full rated range to about 507 km during this time.
DB8A5ED0-5A4C-4885-8721-E3C98791DB7C.jpeg

Despite the varying “Estimated 100% range” we see here, the Nominal full pack has been 78.8-78.9 during all this time.

The drop at about 39K was induced by me, or at least I think so. I tried a reversed BMS-calibration at that time. I still had a nominal full pack of 81.4kWh (steady for months) which was not really credible after > 1 year and 39 K km. So I did run the car down to very low SOC, twice (-1.8% and -2%) as driving down to 0% had not helped. After this the NFP started to move. At this time I had my own calculation/estimation about the battery capacity (circa 79kWh) but when the NFP started the move down it went progressively all the way down to 75.7kWh. At the same time (more or less precisely) I made a 100-0% drive that indicated 78.85-79kWh capacity, so I can safely say that that was the BMS being as much if on the low side, as it was “high” before that.
I did not do any BMS calibration stuff, I just used the car and eventually it came up to 78.6-78.9 where it has been for a while.
Currently it looks like the BMS is “on track” as it doesnt adjust the SOC noticably after a long drive + sleep.

As the BMS was “stuck hi” the true range has not been shown that often in my car.
I made a hand drawn line with my mobile phone, so it is not that exact, but just to show how the real range should have looked. IRL, I probably had >80.6 kWh for the first six months or so it should be at 507 km for about 10-15K and then reduce, but I think you get the idea if how the battery actually degraded from that picture.
6BA6E0F5-75E8-409D-813A-656859362E55.jpeg


2) The “number of other cars” is cars that have a logged charge with the same odo reading (must be a quite narrow band used, as this number go up and down each day).
There is at least 33 or so M3P facelift/2021, that can ve seem at lower odo readings. As the ”band is narrow” there probably is much more, like the double amount or so in total. My car is included in the average, as it seems. Scrolling through gives a very varying number of cars, like 20-33, the number jumps up and down. As most cars havent the same miles as my, there is fewer cars close to 60K km.

EEEE337F-1764-4439-94E9-B78F656EECCE.jpeg

3) The latest part of the average line jumps between 2 and 8 cars.
 
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So let me see if I have this correct, in order to keep degradation as low as possible thereby keeping maximum range we need to charge under 60% severely limiting our range?, I think i'm going to just charge to 90% when charging and occasionally charge to 100% just before leaving on a long trip and after 5 years I can look forward to a new Tesla!
Do you drive 270 miles/day on a normal day? If you don't then you can can take advantage of charging to a lower percentage and decrease the battery degradation. If you're using less than 130 miles/day, you can probably drop down to the 55% charge rate.
 
So let me see if I have this correct, in order to keep degradation as low as possible thereby keeping maximum range we need to charge under 60% severely limiting our range?, I think i'm going to just charge to 90% when charging and occasionally charge to 100% just before leaving on a long trip and after 5 years I can look forward to a new Tesla!
So let me see if I have this correct, in order to keep degradation as low as possible thereby keeping maximum range we need to charge under 60% severely limiting our range?,
The lower the SOC is ”in average”, the lower the calendar aging will be*.
The smaller the Dept of Discharge, and the lower the SOC range is during a cycle the smaller the cyclic aging will be.

*) This doesnt mean never charging above 55%, but it means minimizing the time that the car spends with high SOC ( i.e 55%).
Charge shortly before the drive if going above 55%.
I have about 30 full charges during the two years and 50 Supercharging sessions, still low degradation.
I think i'm going to just charge to 90% when charging and occasionally charge to 100% just before leaving on a long trip and after 5 years I can look forward to a new Tesla!
The battery won’t break by following Teslas advices, so that is not a problem.
 
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Do you drive 270 miles/day on a normal day? If you don't then you can can take advantage of charging to a lower percentage and decrease the battery degradation. If you're using less than 130 miles/day, you can probably drop down to the 55% charge rate.
Well unfortunately my 269 mile range MYAWD with new 275/40/19 DWS06 tires driving on the freeway at 75 mph maybe more when traffic is flowing that fast is getting less than 200 miles of range, I knew going in that I would lose some range changing out the tires and I also knew that advertised range is no where near real world range for me (coming from 5 yr. ownership of a 2018 model 3 RWDLR) the good news is that I seem to have more patience now and with such a robust SC network I have no problem in CA finding a spot to charge every couple of hours or less, I'm on a road trip now and its been pleasant stopping often for 20 min charges, I never know from day to day when I will want to take off for 100 miles or so, it makes sense for me to keep the car between 50 to 90% so thats what I do.
 
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So let me see if I have this correct, in order to keep degradation as low as possible thereby keeping maximum range we need to charge under 60% severely limiting our range?, I think i'm going to just charge to 90% when charging and occasionally charge to 100% just before leaving on a long trip and after 5 years I can look forward to a new Tesla!
Yes, exactly. My take is that if you are REALLY concerned and want to select 70-80% as a daily charging level because it still gives you plenty of range for your daily use, then sure, why not? But the return on being anal about keeping the car in a very narrow range just isn't worth the effort or even the off chance I might suddenly want to head out of town and be low on battery. I alternate between 80% and 90% charging depending on whether I plan to drive a lot or not. I'll charge to 100% before a trip, but only if I think I need it to get to my first supercharger stop. Otherwise, I might as well just charge to 90% as the extra 10% is insignificant at the Supercharger.
 
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Well unfortunately my 269 mile range MYAWD with new 275/40/19 DWS06 tires driving on the freeway at 75 mph maybe more when traffic is flowing that fast is getting less than 200 miles of range, I knew going in that I would lose some range changing out the tires and I also knew that advertised range is no where near real world range for me (coming from 5 yr. ownership of a 2018 model 3 RWDLR) the good news is that I seem to have more patience now and with such a robust SC network I have no problem in CA finding a spot to charge every couple of hours or less, I'm on a road trip now and its been pleasant stopping often for 20 min charges, I never know from day to day when I will want to take off for 100 miles or so, it makes sense for me to keep the car between 50 to 90% so thats what I do.
My commute on a daily basis is pretty short, so I keep it my MYP at a 50% daily charge level, but like you said when I'm on a trip or the daily drive necessitates a higher charge then I charge to whatever I need. The supercharger network is the best out there, enjoy the trip!
 
Been following a lot of the posts on charging. Just a general question, there seems to be a lot of variability on charging depending on needs/situation. Seems clear that at least calendar aging benefits from keeping a low SOC and shallow depth of charges. But, in the long run, assuming you don't do anything really dumb like daily SC to 100%, after 5-10 years of ownership, how much difference will there be, will the degradation curves eventually converge? Whether your charging to 50% vs 90% daily, is it reasonable to expect about 10% or so degradation after 5-10 years?
 
So let me see if I have this correct, in order to keep degradation as low as possible thereby keeping maximum range we need to charge under 60% severely limiting our range?, I think i'm going to just charge to 90% when charging and occasionally charge to 100% just before leaving on a long trip and after 5 years I can look forward to a new Tesla!
If you're not going to use 90% of range, then why degrade your battery? How do you know in 5 years you will get a new Tesla? And why not sell a low degraded car for more than a high degraded one?
 
Been following a lot of the posts on charging. Just a general question, there seems to be a lot of variability on charging depending on needs/situation. Seems clear that at least calendar aging benefits from keeping a low SOC and shallow depth of charges. But, in the long run, assuming you don't do anything really dumb like daily SC to 100%, after 5-10 years of ownership, how much difference will there be, will the degradation curves eventually converge? Whether your charging to 50% vs 90% daily, is it reasonable to expect about 10% or so degradation after 5-10 years?

There's no real evidence the degradation curves will converge (until 0% free lithium left!), or reason to believe so. Degradation is always happening and the rate is higher at higher state of charge and temperature, not history. No reason to think a low degradation battery will spontaneously "accelerate" degradation rate to catch up given otherwise equal temperature and SOC.

This is related to my question whether the sqrt(time) effect is modulated by state of charge, and answer is seemingly 'no'.

Doing it AAKEE's way (usually 55% or less charge limit) will cut degradation about in half what it would otherwise be. Charging to 90% will probably give significantly more than 10% degradation in 10 years. If the sqrt() relation holds exactly (it is an approximation) then you'll have 3.16x your first year calendar degradation, plus the cyclic degradation (which will also be higher when it starts from a higher SOC). If 6% is 1st year (roughly typical), then 19% in 10 years plus cyclic which will start adding up.

80% or 70% charge limit won't help much. 50% will.
 
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Been following a lot of the posts on charging. Just a general question, there seems to be a lot of variability on charging depending on needs/situation. Seems clear that at least calendar aging benefits from keeping a low SOC and shallow depth of charges. But, in the long run, assuming you don't do anything really dumb like daily SC to 100%, after 5-10 years of ownership, how much difference will there be, will the degradation curves eventually converge? Whether your charging to 50% vs 90% daily, is it reasonable to expect about 10% or so degradation after 5-10 years?
Interested question.

Also interesting would be to find out if there's any correlation between high battery degradation and probability of battery failure. Degradation is not great as it reduces the distance you can travel without stopping, but failure would be worse.
 
Interested question.

Also interesting would be to find out if there's any correlation between high battery degradation and probability of battery failure. Degradation is not great as it reduces the distance you can travel without stopping, but failure would be worse.

Potentially yes if high battery degradation is from high state of charge.


A fully charged battery has a lower thermal runaway temperature and will vent sooner than one that is partially charged. All lithium-based batteries are safer at a lower charge, and this is why authorities will mandate air shipment of Li-ion at 30 percent state-of-charge rather than at full charge
 
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Another practice, and one I'm not seeing mentioned yet (I may have missed it), is to "departure charge" so you're only at the intended peak rate for a very short time.

Just as CarFax is now making obvious wrecked cars that are sold "like new", battery degradation tools, and awareness of same, is increasing rapidly. Come trade-in time I'm guessing some are going to feel something someplace unexpected.
 
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Been following a lot of the posts on charging. Just a general question, there seems to be a lot of variability on charging depending on needs/situation. Seems clear that at least calendar aging benefits from keeping a low SOC and shallow depth of charges. But, in the long run, assuming you don't do anything really dumb like daily SC to 100%, after 5-10 years of ownership, how much difference will there be, will the degradation curves eventually converge? Whether your charging to 50% vs 90% daily, is it reasonable to expect about 10% or so degradation after 5-10 years?
The degradation that is calendar aging dependant, will follow this with the square root of time. The main part of degradation will come from this for the first 5-8 year of the batterys life.
D2015CDD-3E8F-42E3-B76B-896B9624AAB6.jpeg


At the same temperature (thinking, we can not easy lower the temperature) having the battery below ”the step” will cut the calendar aging in half.
10 months at 80-90% causes about 5% degradation.
10 months at 30-55% causes 2.5%
(Below 30%, even less)

In the long run, after ten years 80-90% degrades 17%
30-55% degrades 8.5%.

To this comes the self regenerating effect at low SOC that heals a part of the degrsdstion from cycling. How much, I can not say but the researchers do find the effect, specialky after fast charging etc.
So there is a small (?) extra win by using low SOC, resulting in even smaller degradation in total.

The cyclic degradation is also lower at low SOC, so this also refuce by half or so.

I live in a cold climate which is good (for this purpose), and my cars degradation is about 1/3 of the average for the same car.
This will most probably continue like this, snd after 10 yesrs I have 1/3 of the range loss compared to the average.
D5BF559B-733B-4574-85CD-A4685553BFAD.jpeg
 
If you're not going to use 90% of range, then why degrade your battery? How do you know in 5 years you will get a new Tesla? And why not sell a low degraded car for more than a high degraded one?
Because cell balancing does not work as good below 90%, Because I don't think 90% is that bad for the battery, Because if i'm still alive in 5 years I have set myself up financially to buy one, if i'm dead then....well....that would suck now wouldn't it?, Because I did not buy the car new and take the majority of depreciation just to let others benefit, I mean don't get me wrong I treat my cars very well and just sold my first 2018 M3 RWD with 58k on it still charging to 283 miles at 100% with barley a scratch on it, no dents, no dings with fsd, newer tires, detailed for 28k so while I may have used that battery more than you, I still gave that buyer some love!
 
Can I ask a question....when your Tesla gives you the range on the battery meter, they use an algorithm to get that number ? so, does that algorithm include the age of the battery ?
The range at the bsttery symbol is a pure measurement of the energy in the battery.
Range will decrease at 100% as the battery looses capacity.
But the number is the energy divided by a fixed number of Wh/km —> driving style and outside temperature do not matter.
A Cold battery can shorten the range slightly by reducing the shown SOC to compemsate for the losses due to this.
 
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I just wanted to make a comment about the idea of charging to 100% before a "long trip". No problem with that if you NEED that 100% to get to the next supercharger with your preferred buffer amount, but if you don't then no need to charge to 100%. A lot of times, charging just enough to get to your next preferred supercharger at your preferred buffer amount(mine is 15-20%) is faster overall because of the charging rate curve.

Now this goes out the window if your long trip is just a bunch of around town driving and you don't plan on hitting a supercharger before you go back home, then yeah charge to 100% if you need to...again so you can get back home at your preferred low SOC limit. :)
 
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I just wanted to make a comment about the idea of charging to 100% before a "long trip". No problem with that if you NEED that 100% to get to the next supercharger with your preferred buffer amount, but if you don't then no need to charge to 100%. A lot of times, charging just enough to get to your next preferred supercharger at your preferred buffer amount(mine is 15-20%) is faster overall because of the charging rate curve.

Now this goes out the window if your long trip is just a bunch of around town driving and you don't plan on hitting a supercharger before you go back home, then yeah charge to 100% if you need to...again so you can get back home at your preferred low SOC limit. :)
Yep, I no longer charge up to 80/90% before a trip, from my normal daily 60%. I realized that I stopped at the same first stop, regardless, 90miles away. The only difference is I may charge an additional 5mins. Of course, you save a little money, in my case $3, since supercharging costs me double than home charging.
 
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