aerodyne
2 of 3 EV's - Defect Free!
SMT is also valuable for determining when cooling pumps are running, as well as pack temps and cell imbalance. You can make a custom screen.
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Battery Replaced Under Warranty - 30+ miles below rated range
- Thread starter robertmanning
- Start date
FYI: @wk057 says that those numbers aren't accurate, and that Tesla doesn't use them in the car at all. Tesla uses different numbers that aren't broadcast on the CAN bus.
aerodyne
2 of 3 EV's - Defect Free!
His numbers are based on a few teardowns, may be errors due to limited sample size.
But I believe Jason's numbers are good to within a percent or so. When I take his capacity numbers for my car and divide them by my EPA consumption, it is pretty close.
I may have misstated the 60 pack capacity by a few KWH earlier, don't have those numbers memorized. Use Jason's numbers.
But I believe Jason's numbers are good to within a percent or so. When I take his capacity numbers for my car and divide them by my EPA consumption, it is pretty close.
I may have misstated the 60 pack capacity by a few KWH earlier, don't have those numbers memorized. Use Jason's numbers.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Thanks for mentioning the Scan-my-Tesla app... is there an iOS version what type of Adapter cable do you recommend?
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.emon.canbus.tesla&hl=en_US
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
After reading 4 pages of this post, I went back to the original post to see if I could understand the OPS complaint.
The original post said the OP had his 2 0 1 4 Tesla's 60kWh battery replaced after using it for 2020-2014 = 6
years and because the replacement battery charged to 173 miles on a full charge he was claiming that Tesla is
cheating him since the original full charge on the s60 reported 208 miles of range back in 2014. 173 / 208 indicates
about a 17 percent lose of range after 6 years. (about 17/6 or about 2.83% a year) Much depends on how often
the owner did full charges and how often the owner used supercharges in terms of degradation.
Also did a check of the forums and found several Tesla Model S 60 owners with similar degradation so the 17%
number is well within normal range for that battery. Newer larger Tesla batteries are reportedly showing lower
percentages of loss after 5 years most likely because of improved design. The 60's were the early birds.
Next, I checked the Tesla battery warranty and found the following paragraph: QUOTE:
If your Battery or Drive Unit requires warranty service, Tesla will repair the unit, or replace it with a factory reconditioned unit. When replacing a Battery, Tesla will ensure that the energy capacity of the replacement Battery is at least equal to that of the original Battery before the failure occurred. END QUOTE
This would mean that if the battery, after 6 years of use had degraded by ... let's say 18%.. that the replacement battery needed to provide at least that level of power / range. The fact that the replacement battery does NOT have to provide the original EPA E S T I M A T E D
range would indicate that Tesla is using reconditioned batteries for warranty repairs and thus the lower range numbers.
IMHO, the performance of Mr. Mannings replacement battery is well within the limited warranty provisions.'
p.s.
It always concerns me when I see comments on these forums that use the words 'Elon PROMISED or Tesla PROMISED or the Salesman PROMISED'. If the posters were 12 years old, I'd understand their shock at finding that Santa Claus is not real, but as adults I would hope folks realize that promises are just words and the only binding promise is contained in the usually, complicated, warranties and written sales contracts.
An EPA estimated rate of 208 miles, for example, is NOT a promise. It is an estimate and frankly, with my 2015 Model S 70D in warm weather I often exceed the EPA estimate and in cold weather I always see a decline in estimated MPG. The same was true for my 2006 Prius and my VW TDI...and every other ICE vehicle I've owned over the years. Had to get that off my chest. Sorry if I ticked anyone off.
The original post said the OP had his 2 0 1 4 Tesla's 60kWh battery replaced after using it for 2020-2014 = 6
years and because the replacement battery charged to 173 miles on a full charge he was claiming that Tesla is
cheating him since the original full charge on the s60 reported 208 miles of range back in 2014. 173 / 208 indicates
about a 17 percent lose of range after 6 years. (about 17/6 or about 2.83% a year) Much depends on how often
the owner did full charges and how often the owner used supercharges in terms of degradation.
Also did a check of the forums and found several Tesla Model S 60 owners with similar degradation so the 17%
number is well within normal range for that battery. Newer larger Tesla batteries are reportedly showing lower
percentages of loss after 5 years most likely because of improved design. The 60's were the early birds.
Next, I checked the Tesla battery warranty and found the following paragraph: QUOTE:
If your Battery or Drive Unit requires warranty service, Tesla will repair the unit, or replace it with a factory reconditioned unit. When replacing a Battery, Tesla will ensure that the energy capacity of the replacement Battery is at least equal to that of the original Battery before the failure occurred. END QUOTE
This would mean that if the battery, after 6 years of use had degraded by ... let's say 18%.. that the replacement battery needed to provide at least that level of power / range. The fact that the replacement battery does NOT have to provide the original EPA E S T I M A T E D
range would indicate that Tesla is using reconditioned batteries for warranty repairs and thus the lower range numbers.
IMHO, the performance of Mr. Mannings replacement battery is well within the limited warranty provisions.'
p.s.
It always concerns me when I see comments on these forums that use the words 'Elon PROMISED or Tesla PROMISED or the Salesman PROMISED'. If the posters were 12 years old, I'd understand their shock at finding that Santa Claus is not real, but as adults I would hope folks realize that promises are just words and the only binding promise is contained in the usually, complicated, warranties and written sales contracts.
An EPA estimated rate of 208 miles, for example, is NOT a promise. It is an estimate and frankly, with my 2015 Model S 70D in warm weather I often exceed the EPA estimate and in cold weather I always see a decline in estimated MPG. The same was true for my 2006 Prius and my VW TDI...and every other ICE vehicle I've owned over the years. Had to get that off my chest. Sorry if I ticked anyone off.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
We covered literally all of the points raised in your post in the first 4 pages of this thread. Not sure how you missed them.
OP is not upset because the replacement battery didn't provide the same rated range as when the car was new. They're upset because the replacement battery is significantly more degraded than the battery they replaced, which is contrary to the warranty statement you helpfully bolded and underlined above.
aerodyne
2 of 3 EV's - Defect Free!
Tesla called today. They have decided to replace the replacement battery.
Yes, thank you. Range can never be an argument because it is so variable. Reduced range could be a symptom of a problem, but then we have to find if there is a problem. You have to stick with math on a battery warranty debate. Many people talked about buying a link adapter and cable, but that has nothing to do with the legal language of the warranty. I will now purchase this item because, yes, I know it has value, but it wouldn't have helped in my case because I didn't have the link adapter data from my previous battery to compare. I did have the math. And I have tons of real world data from the battery they are about to replace. You have to show that your PREVIOUS battery had more "capacity" than the replacement.
When the next replacement goes in the car, the first thing I will do is drive the car and do the math. Number are numbers when you determine the usable battery capacity using actual miles driven and the watt hours used to do so.
Tesla would never admit if the battery was software limited and they would never answer what capacity they were seeing remotely in the battery they installed. The tech said he wasn't allowed to do so.
And I asked why the replacement battery was demonstrating such low capacity and the gentleman I spoke to simply didn't know. He said they were going to look at that pack and troubleshoot. I'm assuming to make sure it doesn't happen in the future. After all of the nonsense, Tesla was very helpful and diligent after I submitted the formal warranty complaint. It's unfortunate it had to go that far.
I'll continue to keep you updated.
I am confident that this forum and all of your concerns were extremely helpful. Thank you to everyone.
I'll let you know what happens once the battery is replaced.
The battery in my car failed and it had to be replaced. Info is at the beginning of this thread.
I will use this app from now on. Thank you. But as I said in other posts, this wouldn't have helped my warranty concern. You have to show that the previous battery had more capacity than the replacement.
Glad they finally decided to do the right thing. (I suspect that this doesn't happen very often so they don't have a set procedure to follow, but that is no excuse, it should be very obvious from the data they have that the replacement pack didn't meet the terms of the warranty.)
aerodyne
2 of 3 EV's - Defect Free!
I am glad as well. I am sure the fear of loosing arbitration was part of the decision.
You tried many things, short of a CAN bus readout, what was the most successful argument that you made with them?
In my case, I was told today they had to pull my pack, and were sourcing parts. Let's hope I don't end up with your replacement pack!
Robert has a 60kWh pack, so there shouldn't be any way you would get his.
aerodyne
2 of 3 EV's - Defect Free!
I got a pic of the old pack label. It will be the first thing I check. Not taking any chances!
OK... I'll try that. BY THE WAY: I found that by putting the car in track mode and turning Regen completely OFF... I can get much better range. I think that's because you can essentially coast with the car's momentum for long distances without using any power. when you are constantly slowing down and using power to get back up to speed I think you wind up using more juice. My 2001 RAV4 EV had a switch for no regeneration and I used to drive it that way all the time to extend my range. I wish this was a normal option on the M3 without having to go into track mode
You can always hold the accelerator pedal in the 0 power position.
(Yeah it isn't as easy and requires you to pay attention and adjust.)
Actually, I’d love another option for this - similar to auto lowering of the car - turn off regen over e.g. 60mph completely, then reneable it when going slower - then one can coast at highway speeds (or wherever one sets the threshold), but have regen in city traffic.
I think that might be the best of both worlds.
I think that might be the best of both worlds.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
I think the only way this could possibly result in better efficiency is if you drive like my wife.
Her preferred method of driving ICE cars on the freeway seems to be stabbing the throttle at semi-regular intervals and then letting it go completely so the car can coast for a while.
I always thought she drove a little herky-jerky, but didn’t piece it together until I was following her while she was driving the Tesla. She’d let off every now and then to the point that the brake lights would come on from the regen, nice little “brake check” on the freeway for the car behind her. I’m sure people love that.
It’s easy enough to “coast” the car with your foot - no need to change settings. With TACC engaged, I can’t imagine there’s any difference in efficiency related to the regen setting.
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