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BBC 1 - Panorama: The Electric Car Revolution – Winners and Losers. Wednesday at 19:30
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tomorrowman
Member
I'm sure we are all hoping for a well balanced informative piece of journalism that the BBC is more than capable of producing if it sees fit
Pink Duck
Active Member
Seemed to be a reasonable factual discussion about the place where a good chunk of the world's cobalt is extracted and its local populace and their difficulties, particularly with respect to the 'artisanal' 'up to 30%' mined by private individuals on Glencore land acquired through suspect dealing in 2015.
Also good to see some quality up-to-date drone footage of Nevada, a brief clip of Battery Day, plus plenty of brand awareness for the UK audience on prime time TV.
Also good to see some quality up-to-date drone footage of Nevada, a brief clip of Battery Day, plus plenty of brand awareness for the UK audience on prime time TV.
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interbear
Active Member
I watched it and was unsurprised at the general message. It was overly focused on Tesla and Musk but as a pioneer of electric vehicles I suppose it‘s inevitable that they/he take the criticism as well as plaudits on behalf of the industry.
Clearly some focus and action is required to improve the cobalt supply chain in terms of ethics, human rights and safety in the DRC. Also to rid that supply chain of any corruption which is endemic in some markets, as outlined in the broadcast. But I don’t think the blame can be laid at Tesla’s door for “artisanal miners” who trespass on a Glencore mine and suffer awful consequences as a result. A human tragedy borne out of economic despair, yes. Tesla’s fault, no, that’s only a view that can be put forward by someone with an agenda. Can Tesla do more, yes, probably, with a supply chain review and by providing funding into the DRC. But so should every other EV manufacturer as they are all doing the same I imagine.
Found it quite interesting overall.
Clearly some focus and action is required to improve the cobalt supply chain in terms of ethics, human rights and safety in the DRC. Also to rid that supply chain of any corruption which is endemic in some markets, as outlined in the broadcast. But I don’t think the blame can be laid at Tesla’s door for “artisanal miners” who trespass on a Glencore mine and suffer awful consequences as a result. A human tragedy borne out of economic despair, yes. Tesla’s fault, no, that’s only a view that can be put forward by someone with an agenda. Can Tesla do more, yes, probably, with a supply chain review and by providing funding into the DRC. But so should every other EV manufacturer as they are all doing the same I imagine.
Found it quite interesting overall.
It's dangerous in the open co-op mines, no one knows (Inc Tesla) if the cobalt from dangerous co-op mines makes it into the supply chain.
Glencore mines are safe, except for when co-op miners illegally broke in and used the mines when it was shut.
Co-op miners don't want Glencore buying their land and making it safer, because it'll mean fewer people will be employed.
Seemed contradictory without mentioning who is selling the land and allowing mining permits.
Not alot to stick on Tesla, but I agree with the nuns: Don't built this on the backs of child labour, support the community and take responsibility for the supply chain ethics.
Glencore mines are safe, except for when co-op miners illegally broke in and used the mines when it was shut.
Co-op miners don't want Glencore buying their land and making it safer, because it'll mean fewer people will be employed.
Seemed contradictory without mentioning who is selling the land and allowing mining permits.
Not alot to stick on Tesla, but I agree with the nuns: Don't built this on the backs of child labour, support the community and take responsibility for the supply chain ethics.
You would think from the programme that the industry exists just to support Tesla and other EV battery users. There was no mention of the fact that the explosion in cobalt use for batteries was (and still is) for everybody's smart phones, tablets, laptops, power tools. There are myriad other uses for cobalt too. The worrying practices in DRC were therefore well established long before large scale EV use of cobalt became a thing.
There are real problems in DRC with their mining operations. There are good reasons to highight these but it seems unhelpful to make such a big link with one area of cobalt use (EVs) and to pick out Tesla as if it's their practices that are special. It's true that large companies can and should use their influence to improve working practices of their suppliers.
Ironically Tesla is the EV company which seems to have made the biggest strides in lowering their dependance on cobalt. It appears that though Tesla has been a major buyer they use considerably less than VW group even though Telsa make more EVs: Volkswagen leads Tesla in consumption of cobalt in EV industry
The programme wasn't clear if stopping artisanal mining was something to stop or something to protect so that local people could continue their unsafe working practices!
There are real problems in DRC with their mining operations. There are good reasons to highight these but it seems unhelpful to make such a big link with one area of cobalt use (EVs) and to pick out Tesla as if it's their practices that are special. It's true that large companies can and should use their influence to improve working practices of their suppliers.
Ironically Tesla is the EV company which seems to have made the biggest strides in lowering their dependance on cobalt. It appears that though Tesla has been a major buyer they use considerably less than VW group even though Telsa make more EVs: Volkswagen leads Tesla in consumption of cobalt in EV industry
The programme wasn't clear if stopping artisanal mining was something to stop or something to protect so that local people could continue their unsafe working practices!
Exactly. Tesla is leading the way in that regard. The SR+ and new base Model3 are using batteries with no cobalt at all. They have also significantly reduced the amount of cobalt in the other packs where it still has an important function.
nkajkmuk
Member
BBC should have taken a more balanced view rather than going with the general sentiment of bashing the most prominent entity in the hope of being listened to
1. EV makers have a responsibility. Many posters here refer to the fact that laptops and mobile phones use said metal - Cobalt. But the issue is the scale. A single car is easily 3 orders of magnitude is scale compared to a mobile phone/laptop battery. If Tesla were to sell a million cars then we are looking at a few billion phones. And we all know there aren’t as many phones but surely a million EV cars is a drop in the ocean considering future demand. I am not sure about the amount of cobalt used in dinosaur fuel industry but would presume it to be similar to mobiles. So scale does matter
2. Bashing Tesla is only going to mean that they rule cobalt out of the equation. Which is what is happening. This does nothing to solve the issues in that town of DRC. If cobalt does not fetch the money as before, people still need to earn a living. It was interesting that a sister on the program said ‘by not offering an alternative one is effectively killing them’ and I think bashing Tesla or any other EV maker is not the best alternative.
3. Glencore is big company and it is interesting how the mining company was taking little to no flack on the program. I suspect there is a deep rooted exploitation culture amounts mining companies and they are always successful in hiding or diverting attention away from it.
This should have been a program about mining in general rather than EVs
1. EV makers have a responsibility. Many posters here refer to the fact that laptops and mobile phones use said metal - Cobalt. But the issue is the scale. A single car is easily 3 orders of magnitude is scale compared to a mobile phone/laptop battery. If Tesla were to sell a million cars then we are looking at a few billion phones. And we all know there aren’t as many phones but surely a million EV cars is a drop in the ocean considering future demand. I am not sure about the amount of cobalt used in dinosaur fuel industry but would presume it to be similar to mobiles. So scale does matter
2. Bashing Tesla is only going to mean that they rule cobalt out of the equation. Which is what is happening. This does nothing to solve the issues in that town of DRC. If cobalt does not fetch the money as before, people still need to earn a living. It was interesting that a sister on the program said ‘by not offering an alternative one is effectively killing them’ and I think bashing Tesla or any other EV maker is not the best alternative.
3. Glencore is big company and it is interesting how the mining company was taking little to no flack on the program. I suspect there is a deep rooted exploitation culture amounts mining companies and they are always successful in hiding or diverting attention away from it.
This should have been a program about mining in general rather than EVs
Joking ! Sorry could not resist.
interbear
Active Member
Agree entirely. Especially with your final point. The focus on Tesla / Musk and EVs was to generate column inches and interest, but the issue is much, much broader. The mining industry in Africa as a whole is known to be rife with corruption and poor practices. Cobalt is simply the latest version of events.
There are presently more than 7 billion phones. Clearly EVs have now taken over the major usage of cobalt but the point here is that the industry problems already existed before Tesla became a major player. If Tesla stopped using cobalt today there would still me a serious issue to resolve regarding mining in the DRC.
The term 'rare' in rare-earth elements does not mean that they are scarce.
I prejudged the content and instead watched a repeat of Professional Master Chief.
It seems that I made the right call, I learnt something from Master Cheif.
Cobalt isn't particularly toxic in most of its forms. The mining culture in DRC is highly toxic, as it is an many sub saharan countries, but directly changing culture in those countries is probably harder to achieve than making the planet carbon neutral by 2050....
It seems that I made the right call, I learnt something from Master Cheif.
Cobalt isn't particularly toxic in most of its forms. The mining culture in DRC is highly toxic, as it is an many sub saharan countries, but directly changing culture in those countries is probably harder to achieve than making the planet carbon neutral by 2050....
This forum is a lot more balanced in its response than a lot of the comment on the Facebook Tesla groups. It’s all starting to sound a bit “fake news” on there which caused me to wonder about the sort of people who buy Teslas these days. Certainly not all lentil knitting environmentalists, that’s for sure. Clearly I’m glad that the Tesla audience has widened, but it’s scary that the sort of language is not dissimilar that would be expected on a V8 pickup group.
I thought the programme was pretty good, once you set aside the lack of context about other cobalt uses. I’m with the nuns (which is not something I would usually say).
I thought the programme was pretty good, once you set aside the lack of context about other cobalt uses. I’m with the nuns (which is not something I would usually say).
Jason71
Well-Known Member
Spoiler… joke alert
Reminds me of the report a nun made to the mother superior, telling her “mother superior, there’s a new case is syphilis in the convent” to which the mother superior replied “it will make a welcome change from that awful beaujolais we’ve been drinking”
tomorrowman
Member
Get impression nun's want more equitable distribution of cobalt wealth currently going to Glencore, middlemen, corrupt government officials etc and see the artisinal mines as at least providing much needed (although dangerous) work for the locals (the Glencore industrial mining practices provide little in way of jobs).
The Tesla approach to the problem is to remove cobalt from the battery chemistry, that's not going to help the locals. DRC and Glencore customers need to prod Glencore to be more philanthropic in the DRC cobalt mining business but that would probably be diverted to corrupt local officials.
Hmm not an easy one
The Tesla approach to the problem is to remove cobalt from the battery chemistry, that's not going to help the locals. DRC and Glencore customers need to prod Glencore to be more philanthropic in the DRC cobalt mining business but that would probably be diverted to corrupt local officials.
Hmm not an easy one
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