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"Blind Spot Detection is disappointing"
- Thread starter drgallo
- Start date
EV-lutioin
Active Member
Wait, why is adjusting mirrors outward "extremely dangerous"? I am interested in your reasoning, because there seems to be an abundance of evidence that outward adjustment is the safest option. And I agree, manufacturers should do everything possible to provide secondary features to back up eyes and mirrors.
Here's a PDF that has the right general idea, but doesn't go quite far enough in the testing.
http://www.cartalk.com/sites/default/files/features/mirrors/CarTalkMirrors.pdf
To finish off what isn't said in the PDF, is .... as the car seen in the side mirror now continues to overtake you (ya, as if that ever happens in a Tesla!) ..anyway... as that car overtakes you ... before the car image completely leaves the side mirror coming along your side, you should notice the front of that car appearing in your peripheral vision without even moving your head from pointing directly forward. If you have that... your adjustment is golden.
Because motorcycles and very small cars (Smart car?) are short, they may not appear in your peripheral vision first before disappearing from your mirror. So turn to look for smaller vehicles. If you're a very attentive driver always scanning your mirrors, you'll always have a pretty good idea of traffic approaching you from the rear. But still, small fast things (motorcycles) can always zip in pretty quickly, and is why you always turn to look on the street.
The ultimate goal (and test) is you will see any car or vehicle behind or beside you (the whole 180 degree arc to the rear) in at least one mirror at all times, and in more than one mirror if it's transitioning left or right... until that car leaves your side mirror. And is now essentially beside you.
To adjust your mirrors correctly it's actually easier to do at night. Contrary to the method talked about in the PDF... instructor says leave your head in the place you'll be driving while going straight and move only your eyes in sockets. Follow the headlights of something in the rear as the very obvious markers... as the first headlight drifts to the side leaving your interior rear view mirror, you should have already been able to see that same headlight appear in your side mirror. Adjust accordingly. That headlight should be seen on BOTH mirrors for a little while as the car continues to pass in that direction.. This catches even motorcycles moving around you.
If you have that, you KNOW there is no other car "in between" ... there is no blind spot there anymore. Without moving your head, you scan left mirror, center mirror, right mirror... and see everything in that arc behind you.
The freakiest thing on the track is TRUSTING your mirrors. It takes a while to trust this system. All cars are roughly the same length so you don't need to worry about motorcycles squeaking in. You DO SEE the car in your peripheral before it leaves your side mirror. You do have 360 visibility without turning your head. Instructor driven ride-along's you'll notice they never take their eyes off the forward 180 arc.. and there's passing going on (safely) all the time! When you're driving you'll get zapped for doing a shoulder check and not keeping your eyes forward... Things are happening faster in the direction you're going and you need to keep coverage on that at all times. Blinking is OK. But, just.
You can't quite drive like that on a real road... but you learn to know the limits and best use of your mirrors. Trust me, I had the lecture, did the practical work, and passed .. got my Mercedes Race certificate. Good to go!
http://www.cartalk.com/sites/default/files/features/mirrors/CarTalkMirrors.pdf
To finish off what isn't said in the PDF, is .... as the car seen in the side mirror now continues to overtake you (ya, as if that ever happens in a Tesla!) ..anyway... as that car overtakes you ... before the car image completely leaves the side mirror coming along your side, you should notice the front of that car appearing in your peripheral vision without even moving your head from pointing directly forward. If you have that... your adjustment is golden.
Because motorcycles and very small cars (Smart car?) are short, they may not appear in your peripheral vision first before disappearing from your mirror. So turn to look for smaller vehicles. If you're a very attentive driver always scanning your mirrors, you'll always have a pretty good idea of traffic approaching you from the rear. But still, small fast things (motorcycles) can always zip in pretty quickly, and is why you always turn to look on the street.
The ultimate goal (and test) is you will see any car or vehicle behind or beside you (the whole 180 degree arc to the rear) in at least one mirror at all times, and in more than one mirror if it's transitioning left or right... until that car leaves your side mirror. And is now essentially beside you.
To adjust your mirrors correctly it's actually easier to do at night. Contrary to the method talked about in the PDF... instructor says leave your head in the place you'll be driving while going straight and move only your eyes in sockets. Follow the headlights of something in the rear as the very obvious markers... as the first headlight drifts to the side leaving your interior rear view mirror, you should have already been able to see that same headlight appear in your side mirror. Adjust accordingly. That headlight should be seen on BOTH mirrors for a little while as the car continues to pass in that direction.. This catches even motorcycles moving around you.
If you have that, you KNOW there is no other car "in between" ... there is no blind spot there anymore. Without moving your head, you scan left mirror, center mirror, right mirror... and see everything in that arc behind you.
The freakiest thing on the track is TRUSTING your mirrors. It takes a while to trust this system. All cars are roughly the same length so you don't need to worry about motorcycles squeaking in. You DO SEE the car in your peripheral before it leaves your side mirror. You do have 360 visibility without turning your head. Instructor driven ride-along's you'll notice they never take their eyes off the forward 180 arc.. and there's passing going on (safely) all the time! When you're driving you'll get zapped for doing a shoulder check and not keeping your eyes forward... Things are happening faster in the direction you're going and you need to keep coverage on that at all times. Blinking is OK. But, just.
You can't quite drive like that on a real road... but you learn to know the limits and best use of your mirrors. Trust me, I had the lecture, did the practical work, and passed .. got my Mercedes Race certificate. Good to go!
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It not always a limitation of the left to right adjustment range... it can also be a limitation of the actual mirror glass size, not being wide enough to show everything it should in the swath at a particular adjustment setting. if you know what I mean..
Let's assume there is a truck behind you, maybe even closer so you can see almost nothing in the center mirror.. Now the 2 right lanes are going very very slow and you decide hey I'll go into the left lane, because that's a different exit. How are you going to see the car in the left lane in the back if it's going 50mph faster? If you see the car where it get in the right mirror you would probably have 1 second until it's next to you. How would you ever safely determine that the left lane is free and there isn't a fast car approaching?
I'm leasing a 70D, best car I've ever had, and I probably should have leased a 90D. Still love the car. Tesla does very well with information provided to the front camera and radar. Most forum comments imply that it's better than all others at holding a lane. I don't care if I get flamed but its blind spot detection, and overall detection of anything out of the range of the front camera is not good. It is amazing what it can do with the front camera and radar. I think you should be "licensed" to fully use autopilot. It does what it does really well, but it's essential you know it's weaknesses.
What angers me, but is most likely very normal, is the attempts to defend Tesla, which are actually well intentioned posts on how to adjust the mirrors. I'm not putting people that do that down, because it's good info.
I was charging yesterday next to a new Model S with the new sensor array, and there are cameras in the front fender Tesla emblem as well as in the side pillars. These appear to look sideways and backwards. My guess is they used they emblem rather than the rear view mirror to simplify wiring and simplify things. This input to the new nVidia system should take care of the blind spot issue, but my other issue is with rear traffic (both behind and cross traffic) detection and I may have missed a sensor.
However, from my limited research, the ultrasonic sensors can, depending on frequency used, look out between 0 and 15 feet, and unless a car is rapidly approaching from the rear in an adjacent lane, it's not going to be detected. I get the concept of creating a virtual "space" around the car by virtue of the fact that it is moving, and can gather information on what's behind it under circumstances where it actually passes the objects, but that's not enough. It should, however, keep you from lane changing into a car in the next lane.
The transition to more sensors, and what is said as 40x the computing power is fascinating, especially when I think about lease renewal vs buy. This is great car. I may want to buy as is. However, based on what I see, in a year or two, people will want to get rid of my old technology, which I'm pretty impressed with, and resale value may be less than the calculated residual value. I do have an early deposit on a Model 3. My guess is Tesla's Model S and X prices will continue to rise, as other posts have mentioned. The computational power of my current autopilot system, at one fortieth of the "new" system is a real incentive to upgrade, and the ultimate reason I leased.
I can put 10 feet of lumber into my 70D, and have it drive me most of the way there. I just take over when there is a bunch of merging traffic or the lanes make radical changes, like a single lane into 3 lanes (intersection where you go left, straight, or right) and ask myself how would I program this. Not hard if you're using a GPS trip plan, or if you had the chance to designate left or right hand priority, but we don't even have red light detection. Since this thread is about blind spot detection, my opinion is that it's not as good as competing products, so I have to give Tesla a fail on this subject.
What angers me, but is most likely very normal, is the attempts to defend Tesla, which are actually well intentioned posts on how to adjust the mirrors. I'm not putting people that do that down, because it's good info.
I was charging yesterday next to a new Model S with the new sensor array, and there are cameras in the front fender Tesla emblem as well as in the side pillars. These appear to look sideways and backwards. My guess is they used they emblem rather than the rear view mirror to simplify wiring and simplify things. This input to the new nVidia system should take care of the blind spot issue, but my other issue is with rear traffic (both behind and cross traffic) detection and I may have missed a sensor.
However, from my limited research, the ultrasonic sensors can, depending on frequency used, look out between 0 and 15 feet, and unless a car is rapidly approaching from the rear in an adjacent lane, it's not going to be detected. I get the concept of creating a virtual "space" around the car by virtue of the fact that it is moving, and can gather information on what's behind it under circumstances where it actually passes the objects, but that's not enough. It should, however, keep you from lane changing into a car in the next lane.
The transition to more sensors, and what is said as 40x the computing power is fascinating, especially when I think about lease renewal vs buy. This is great car. I may want to buy as is. However, based on what I see, in a year or two, people will want to get rid of my old technology, which I'm pretty impressed with, and resale value may be less than the calculated residual value. I do have an early deposit on a Model 3. My guess is Tesla's Model S and X prices will continue to rise, as other posts have mentioned. The computational power of my current autopilot system, at one fortieth of the "new" system is a real incentive to upgrade, and the ultimate reason I leased.
I can put 10 feet of lumber into my 70D, and have it drive me most of the way there. I just take over when there is a bunch of merging traffic or the lanes make radical changes, like a single lane into 3 lanes (intersection where you go left, straight, or right) and ask myself how would I program this. Not hard if you're using a GPS trip plan, or if you had the chance to designate left or right hand priority, but we don't even have red light detection. Since this thread is about blind spot detection, my opinion is that it's not as good as competing products, so I have to give Tesla a fail on this subject.
green1
Active Member
There is no way to eliminate all blind spots. You have a choice. Either the blind spot is touching the side of the car, and you can't see it by turning your head (mirrors too wide) or the blind spot is further forward and further away from the car where a simple shoulder check will see anything in it (mirrors properly adjusted)
the blind spot near your car is far more dangerous than the one further wide because you can't turn your head to see what's in it, and although it often isn't wide enough for a full car, it IS wide enough for a cyclist, motorbike, or pedestrian.
Additionally, if you can't see a sliver of the side of your car in your mirror, you really don't have a clue where your mirror is actually pointed, if it's been knocked you won't know, but your blind spot will have gone from dangerous, to extremely dangerous.
The image that propomnents of this extremely dangerous adjustment always show is pure fantasy, it neglects to show that you can't see what's sitting on the dotted lines beside the car near the back, and not only can't you see it in any mirror, unlike with proper adjustment, you can't see it by shoulder checking either.
the blind spot near your car is far more dangerous than the one further wide because you can't turn your head to see what's in it, and although it often isn't wide enough for a full car, it IS wide enough for a cyclist, motorbike, or pedestrian.
Additionally, if you can't see a sliver of the side of your car in your mirror, you really don't have a clue where your mirror is actually pointed, if it's been knocked you won't know, but your blind spot will have gone from dangerous, to extremely dangerous.
The image that propomnents of this extremely dangerous adjustment always show is pure fantasy, it neglects to show that you can't see what's sitting on the dotted lines beside the car near the back, and not only can't you see it in any mirror, unlike with proper adjustment, you can't see it by shoulder checking either.
SDRick
Active Member
green!, While most experts disagree with you, yours is probably the best explanation I have seen for the other method. To overcome the drawbacks that you highlight, I do one move that addresses your concerns.
To make sure that my mirror has not been knocked out of adjustment I will move my head toward the door until I can see the rear of my car in the side view mirror. I do the same move if I need to check for an object in the small sliver of a blind spot that I may have.
Hopefully in the not-too-distant future, side view mirrors will become a thing of the past, improving aerodynamics and visibility with cameras.
To make sure that my mirror has not been knocked out of adjustment I will move my head toward the door until I can see the rear of my car in the side view mirror. I do the same move if I need to check for an object in the small sliver of a blind spot that I may have.
Hopefully in the not-too-distant future, side view mirrors will become a thing of the past, improving aerodynamics and visibility with cameras.
EV-lutioin
Active Member
I just test drove a Honda Civic today and the standard blind spot camera is the bomb! Love it. It seems apparent from this thread that there is significant room for improvement in Tesla's ability to convey blind spot information to the driver.... especially if a $23,000 Honda does a better job of it than either the MS or MX.
green1
Active Member
Do you do those gymnastics with your head before every single lane change? if not, are you really sure you know what you're seeing? and if so, wouldn't it be easier to just have your mirrors set correctly and do a simple shoulder check?
SDRick
Active Member
I suppose I could ask you the same thing. Do you do those gymnastics with your head before every single lane change? At least with my method my head stays facing forward. There are of course times when I do completely turned my head to the side for a check. It depends on the situation.
For liability sake no one would ever recommend to someone else not to check the blind spot. Different cars, driving situations, driving abilities, and aggressiveness may factor into this as does situational awareness and intimate familiarity with your car and mirror positions. In my experience I find those with more driving experience, particularly in higher-end performance cars tend to use mirror farther out method to some degree or another.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
I drive on the track frequently and do not use this mirror adjustment scheme ... waiting for the side cameras 
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green1
Active Member
Yes, I absolutely shoulder check every time. Are you telling me that you don't????? I sure hope you're nowhere near me on the road!!!!!!!!
And yet you just said your head stays facing forward...
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
The Tesla site is no longer claiming blind spot detection. Maybe they have come to their senses, but many of us bought the car expecting a passable version of this feature.
Before:
Today:
Problem solved. Anyone who thought their car had blind spot detection was mistaken. No more lane departure either. Maybe it will reappear once they have AP 2.0 up and running.
Before:
Today:
Problem solved. Anyone who thought their car had blind spot detection was mistaken. No more lane departure either. Maybe it will reappear once they have AP 2.0 up and running.
EV-lutioin
Active Member
I think they have always and still do have blind spot detection (the little white car that shows -too late- on the screen), but I don't recall there ever being a "blind spot warning". That implies to me that there was a light or sound involved.
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BozieBeMe2
May I have this dance?
If current mid price autos from the big three can have working BSM, why can't our Teslas?
green1
Active Member
Because Tesla is "different" sometimes that's a good thing, often it isn't, but it is what it is.
Tesla refuses to take ideas from other manufacturers, even the good ideas.
I'd argue that Tesla has delivered blind spot detection, and warning. They just haven't delivered a very good or reliable version. Considering how many other promises they've flat out broken, blind spot monitoring is comparatively successfully delivered.
BozieBeMe2
May I have this dance?
3s-a-charm
Active Member
I was taught in an advanced drivers course (for the track) to adjust mirrors outward. If done properly you shouldn't have any blind spots at all. When the instructor had us adjusting mirrors he would walk around the car and you would adjust so that you could see him at all times with minimal head movement or adjustments. I disagree that you "really don't have a clue where your mirror is actually pointed.". It takes a couple of days to get used to but then you get a heightened sense of what is around you. I feel way safer and more in control with my mirrors facing outward. Not sure that you can realistically declare this method "dangerous" as I have complete visibility without tweaking my neck around looking for blind spots.
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