Brake and Roll test

[Barklikeadog]

Elon Musk ordered Tesla engineers to stop doing a critical brake test on Model 3s

Tesla CEO Elon Musk appears to have asked engineers at Tesla's factory in Fremont, California, to remove a standard brake test, called the brake and roll test, from the tasks Model 3 cars must complete to move through production, according to internal documents seen by Business Insider.

The test was apparently shut down before 3 a.m. on June 26, according to a person familiar with the matter. It's unclear why this particular test was halted or for how long.

According to an industry expert, the brake and roll test is a critical part of the car manufacturing process, taking place during its final stages. The test ensures that the car's wheels are perfectly aligned and checks the brakes and their function by taking the vehicle's engine up to certain revolutions per minute and observing how they react on diagnostic machines.


What do you Model 3'ers make of this story?

 

[mtndrew1]

Holy crap my engine doesn’t go to any revolutions per minute! This must be why.

(Why are you here?)

 

[Uncle Paul]

I spoke to an employee that said that this never happened.

See what I did there...

 

[outdoors]

Again every car is driven on test track. Why not skip that step, if your going to do it anyway at a different point in production.

Business Insider. Nuff said.

Bullying no, but some see your forum posts as a constant. Which can be leading to that question. Why do you participate in a forum you seem to always take on devils advocate position? Enjoy it yes. Go right ahead. Might be equivalent to watching the Price Is Right for you.

I enjoy reading your posts @Barklikeadog. Never as funny as @buttershrimp.

 

[Lloyd]

Brake and roll.... isn't that what you do when you are on fire?? Oh wait, that's stop drop and roll

 

[vinnie97]

Bezos Insider...take all of his "news" outfits (incl and esp. wapo) with a fine grain.

 

[a.void]

I just read this after watching the stock crumble again today.

I have concerns when I read "expertsx" saying this an important manufacturing step. Folks on a Tesla forum can say 'meh easily enough, but how many are manufacturing experts.
I sure as heck want my car built and checked for problems before discovering them on my end. This also presents more risk for downstream repair costs and service center impacts

 

[Barklikeadog]

Again every car is driven on test track. Why not skip that step, if your going to do it anyway at a different point in production.

Business Insider. Nuff said.

Bullying no, but some see your forum posts as a constant. Which can be leading to that question. Why do you participate in a forum you seem to always take on devils advocate position? Enjoy it yes. Go right ahead. Might be equivalent to watching the Price Is Right for you.

I enjoy reading your posts @Barklikeadog. Never as funny as @buttershrimp.

I'm very critical, I prepare for the worst and hope for the best. When I am looking to buy something, I always look for the worst reviews and see if
they make sense. I drove several vehicles before settling on another truck. Including a Model S. I was scouring Ford forums, looking for
the smallest problems owners were having. Asking questions that proud truck owners might take the wrong way. 2 years ago, Elon Musk teased
a pickup truck unveil (July 2016 - unveil in 18 to 24 months) and I'd like one. Give me capability, durability and a good price and take my money!

I stuck around here because it is headline news, it is interesting. You might think I'm critical of Tesla's QC because I'm attacking Tesla.
I am not. I am critical about Tesla QC because I see a large corporation shortchanging the little guy. When Apple slows down phones and
screws millions of people, It pisses me off... and I don't own an Iphone. When someone is waiting 3 months for a windshield, or their 100k
car is in the shop for 4 months, I'm going to tell them how f'd up that is, Tesla needs to do better. When I see an article about Tesla skipping
an industry standard QC test, customers down the line might get hurt. If it was done for a billionaire's ego, that's messed up.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Brake and roll.... isn't that what you do when you are on fire?? Oh wait, that's stop drop and roll

Keep rolling because it may reignite!

 

[outdoors]

I'm very critical, I prepare for the worst and hope for the best. When I am looking to buy something, I always look for the worst reviews and see if
they make sense. I drove several vehicles before settling on another truck. Including a Model S. I was scouring Ford forums, looking for
the smallest problems owners were having. Asking questions that proud truck owners might take the wrong way. 2 years ago, Elon Musk teased
a pickup truck unveil (July 2016 - unveil in 18 to 24 months) and I'd like one. Give me capability, durability and a good price and take my money!

I stuck around here because it is headline news, it is interesting. You might think I'm critical of Tesla's QC because I'm attacking Tesla.
I am not. I am critical about Tesla QC because I see a large corporation shortchanging the little guy. When Apple slows down phones and
screws millions of people, It pisses me off... and I don't own an Iphone. When someone is waiting 3 months for a windshield, or their 100k
car is in the shop for 4 months, I'm going to tell them how f'd up that is, Tesla needs to do better. When I see an article about Tesla skipping
an industry standard QC test, customers down the line might get hurt. If it was done for a billionaire's ego, that's messed up.

We should talk sometime about my 14 years of owning Suburbans, and how GM screwed me right and left. Then we could talk about the two different stealerships that conspired to not solve my issues. Then GM polluted our local groundwater by using so much salt on its test track for 20 years. Equivalent to two entire counties worth of usage each year.

It can be hard for a company that is breaking into a 100 year old entrenched crap fest. Many want them to behave like the old. Sometimes the old is just wrong, but many have Stockholm Syndrome because this is the way it is supposed to be done. According to whom? Bob Shmutz? Or Mcmurdo? Edmunds? Those dudes are just trying to stay relevant in the old world. They have little or no experience in anything other than rolling wheels. When the offer up opinions they tend to be. Well that is just not how it's done. A tent? Why no one does that.

I can be called blind to the problems, but I really could care less. Oh I also have a smashed window on my three from a rock, but I tell the SC. It is in when it is in.

Tesla can't afford now to have 6000 windshields strategically placed all over the country. Nor can they put 6000 bumpers, lights, you name i it. So I guess some of that might be why you bought another truck. You might buy a couple more before they start doing exactly what you want. That is what many say. So be it.

 

[Barklikeadog]

We should talk sometime about my 14 years of owning Suburbans, and how GM screwed me right and left. Then we could talk about the two different stealerships that conspired to not solve my issues. Then GM polluted our local groundwater by using so much salt on its test track for 20 years. Equivalent to two entire counties worth of usage each year.

It can be hard for a company that is breaking into a 100 year old entrenched crap fest. Many want them to behave like the old. Sometimes the old is just wrong, but many have Stockholm Syndrome because this is the way it is supposed to be done. According to whom? Bob Shmutz? Or Mcmurdo? Edmunds? Those dudes are just trying to stay relevant in the old world. They have little or no experience in anything other than rolling wheels. When the offer up opinions they tend to be. Well that is just not how it's done. A tent? Why no one does that.

I can be called blind to the problems, but I really could care less. Oh I also have a smashed window on my three from a rock, but I tell the SC. It is in when it is in.

Tesla can't afford now to have 6000 windshields strategically placed all over the country. Nor can they put 6000 bumpers, lights, you name i it. So I guess some of that might be why you bought another truck. You might buy a couple more before they start doing exactly what you want. That is what many say. So be it.

I joked that I would drive the wheels off this one before I get one from Tesla... Which is looking to be the case. That's fine. The service center issues and wait
times freak me out a bit. My previous truck had a crack in the corner of the windshield from road debris. I called insurance on my way to work, then called safe-lite.
At lunchtime I was in the parking garage at work signing off on the newly installed windshield. This is how it should be. Musk is thinking 10 steps ahead, but the
people from the previous steps are being left behind. Not getting a simple bumper for 3 months is criminal. Thank you for your purchase, now buzz off!

 

[Hota]

Here's my point of view as a Model S owner and a someone who just ordered a Model 3.

I am concerned...very concerned and I'm sure as glad I'm not getting my Model 3 delivered in the next quarter.

If anyone knows anything about the Toyota Production System - it's the absolute pinnacle of manufacturing efficiency that's been honed over 50+ years where the focus is on reducing any waste (e.g., waste of things waiting around, waste of things moving, waste of defects/reworking, waste of overproduction, etc.) And no, these aren't tied to ICE vehicles or even cars for that matter. All major automakers (and mass producers) now employ these techniques because it results in much better quality in addition to less expensive manufacturing.

The point is, if any automaker believes the standard brake and roll test is redundant, Toyota would be the first in line to get rid of it. Kaizen, or continuous improvement is encouraged up and down the work structure and line workers are rewarded for making suggestions, no matter how small. Yet, the brake and roll continues to exist today in Toyota's factories.
.
Tesla turns the Toyota Production System on it's head and instead of focusing on quality first, the mentality is build quickly fix it later.

Anyhow, I'm glad my Model 3 won't be in my hands for 3-5 months. The longer the better...as long as I get my $7500 tax credit!

 

[jelloslug]

I'm very critical, I prepare for the worst and hope for the best. When I am looking to buy something, I always look for the worst reviews and see if
they make sense. I drove several vehicles before settling on another truck. Including a Model S. I was scouring Ford forums, looking for
the smallest problems owners were having. Asking questions that proud truck owners might take the wrong way. 2 years ago, Elon Musk teased
a pickup truck unveil (July 2016 - unveil in 18 to 24 months) and I'd like one. Give me capability, durability and a good price and take my money!

I stuck around here because it is headline news, it is interesting. You might think I'm critical of Tesla's QC because I'm attacking Tesla.
I am not. I am critical about Tesla QC because I see a large corporation shortchanging the little guy. When Apple slows down phones and
screws millions of people, It pisses me off... and I don't own an Iphone. When someone is waiting 3 months for a windshield, or their 100k
car is in the shop for 4 months, I'm going to tell them how f'd up that is, Tesla needs to do better. When I see an article about Tesla skipping
an industry standard QC test, customers down the line might get hurt. If it was done for a billionaire's ego, that's messed up.

Did you find out about the troubling pattern of the current F-150 catching on fire?

 

[Krugerrand]

I just read this after watching the stock crumble again today.

I have concerns when I read "expertsx" saying this an important manufacturing step. Folks on a Tesla forum can say 'meh easily enough, but how many are manufacturing experts.
I sure as heck want my car built and checked for problems before discovering them on my end. This also presents more risk for downstream repair costs and service center impacts

The only ‘experts’ on building Tesla cars are those building Tesla cars. Everyone else, *yawn*.

But let’s just pretend this matters. If you’ve tested 1000 cars on this metric and all came back thumbs up, there’s no need to continue to check every car, particularly when EVERY car already gets driven during another phase of QC. The logical solution is to randomly spot check every (fill in the blank) car to verify that all remains well.

Yes, I own one. Now over 15k miles. Brakes and rolls judt fine. The drama level of some people has to hurt.

 

[S'toon]

Hmmm. Looking at the author's list of articles, I don't see any article about Tesla which wasn't inflammatory.

 

[blecchus_rex]

Bezos Insider...take all of his "news" outfits (incl and esp. wapo) with a fine grain.

The Washington Post, in general, is a remaining bastion of ethical journalism. It's always important to triangulate and evaluate for motivation, bias, et cetera... but they get a certain benefit of doubt from me.

 

[voip-ninja]

The only ‘experts’ on building Tesla cars are those building Tesla cars. Everyone else, *yawn*.

But let’s just pretend this matters. If you’ve tested 1000 cars on this metric and all came back thumbs up, there’s no need to continue to check every car, particularly when EVERY car already gets driven during another phase of QC. The logical solution is to randomly spot check every (fill in the blank) car to verify that all remains well.

Yes, I own one. Now over 15k miles. Brakes and rolls judt fine. The drama level of some people has to hurt.

Some critical things can only be caught by specific tests that engineers design to prevent problems. A small misalignment in some upstream equipment can cause an error that can only be caught by such a test.... and it doesn't matter if 100 vehicles or 1,000,000 vehicles passed the test, if something upstream changes and you don't do the testing you might end up with a very costly problem on your hands.

Now, I don't know much about this test or why Tesla eliminated it as unneeded but I can tell you that there are absolutely things that have to be tested whether you've built 100 cars or 100K cars that have performed perfectly.

 

[Yangy]

I want to find out what is this so I did a 5 minutes research: Brake tester - Wikipedia

So it's actually roll and bake, not "brake and roll". It's similar to the system emission tests use where the wheels are moving but cars don't move.

The followings are my thoughts:
- the specific method is probably needed for ICE cars because if you really start the car there will be a lot of exhaust gas, so roll the floor to mimic engine makes sense
- on ICE cars, brake system is tied to engine and cannot be changed after leaving the factory. So this test was critical. However for ev the brake system is completely different and can be adjusted by software. It's actually not that helpful if brake performance can be improved (maybe monitored in real time too) .
- And Tesla says they did track test the brake on every car

 

[jsmay311]

(Disclaimer: I'm not an automotive brake expert...)

So it's actually roll and bake [sic], not "brake and roll".

You definitely shouldn't "roll and bake" before driving a Tesla.

The followings are my thoughts:
- the specific method is probably needed for ICE cars because if you really start the car there will be a lot of exhaust gas, so roll the floor to mimic engine makes sense
- on ICE cars, brake system is tied to engine and cannot be changed after leaving the factory. So this test was critical. However for ev the brake system is completely different and can be adjusted by software. It's actually not that helpful if brake performance can be improved (maybe monitored in real time too) .
- And Tesla says they did track test the brake on every car

Reading about these tests, I don't get the impression that any of the above is likely true. Nor that the value of this test would be appreciably different in an ICEV vs an EV.

It sounds like this is an industry-standard test, and multiple interviewed "experts" say it's important (and they certainly know more than most of us), and Tesla apparently did it on every car until last week when they were under unprecedented pressure to crank out vehicles as fast as possible.

If this test was not value-added for an EV before June 26, 2018, why would Tesla do it for 6+ years before that? Does the timing not demand a skeptical view?

 

[drawfour]

You definitely shouldn't "roll and bake" before driving a Tesla.

Once FSD is implemented, maybe you can.