Cadillac ELR (Converj)

[rolosrevenge]

There's another thing at play here as well for the ELR, some people don't want to drive a full sized sedan. Some people like lots of buttons. Style is subjective. Some people aren't ready to make the jump to full electric. The ELR is really in a class of its own, like the Model S, since the Karma is no more. It's a 2+2 luxury PHEV. So was the Karma. The Model S is a full sized fully electric performance sedan. Big difference. I think the ELR will sell a thousand or so per year. It's a halo car. You can't really compare the reasons of picking one over the other down to just EV miles and handling specs.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

That may be true of the Volt--but it's definitely not true of the ELR. I mean, if you're spending $75K on a coupe, look what else you can get:

Audi RS5--http://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-rs5-coupe

Mercedes E550 or C63 AMG http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/build/class-E/model-E550C?un_jtt_v_appearance=yes

BMW 435 or (probably) M4 or (just barely) 635.

None of those cars are particularly efficient, and maybe there are a group of people out there that want a stylish two door that uses very little gas and who don't care a whit about performance. But the ELR's stats are just embarrassing compared to any of the above cars. [My red.]

No. They’re not particularly efficient… So, the environmental credentials of those cars are just down right tragic compared to the ELR.

The global sea-level has started to move…

True.

The point that I was responding to, though, was that the Volt compares reasonably well from a performance standpoint to the other cars in its class. That's true (to some extent) for the Volt, but it's emphatically NOT true for the ELR.

So, the ELR will perhaps sell to those who are concerned enough about environmental stats to settle for a car that has roughly 50 percent of the performance of everything else in its price class. Maybe slightly less than 50 percent.

How many people like that are there? Well, thanks to GM, we are about to find out.

And I wanted to put that post in perspective with …well, it is what it is; a reality check.

 

[Zythryn]

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So does my BMW 335d, and it also gets better fuel economy and gets to 60 more than 3 seconds faster. Oh, and it's really nice to drive, handles beautifully, and is almost half the price. Weird.

The ELR says "I just want to look like I care about the environment without all the hassle of actually buying a good car in the process."

I disagree. Your BMW drives like a dog, as does any other ICE vehicle I have had a chance to test drive.
If you are looking for a quiet, smooth, zen like driving experience, nothing beats electric drive.
The Volt has a smooth, somewhat quiet ride, but suffers from road/tire noise. If the ELR did a good job with sound insulation, the drive experience should be phenomenal, for the first 30-40 miles.
And the interior luxury is better than any other Cadillac.

True, if looking at performance, the ELR is a slouch. But if looking for an EREV with a luxurious, quite, smooth drive, the ELR may well fit the bill. It isn't for me, but just because it isn't doesn't mean I can't see how it could be a good fit for a few others.

 

[dpeilow]

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So does my BMW 335d, and it also gets better fuel economy and gets to 60 more than 3 seconds faster.

People who keep making this fuel economy comment totally miss the point. You assume the ELR/Volt/Ampera is never plugged in and/or every journey is over 100 miles.

Let me show you what my Ampera gets in the real world.

 

[Gear]

I disagree. Your BMW drives like a dog, as does any other ICE vehicle I have had a chance to test drive.
If you are looking for a quiet, smooth, zen like driving experience, nothing beats electric drive.
The Volt has a smooth, somewhat quiet ride, but suffers from road/tire noise. If the ELR did a good job with sound insulation, the drive experience should be phenomenal, for the first 30-40 miles.
And the interior luxury is better than any other Cadillac.

True, if looking at performance, the ELR is a slouch. But if looking for an EREV with a luxurious, quite, smooth drive, the ELR may well fit the bill. It isn't for me, but just because it isn't doesn't mean I can't see how it could be a good fit for a few others.

People who keep making this fuel economy comment totally miss the point. You assume the ELR/Volt/Ampera is never plugged in and/or every journey is over 100 miles.

Let me show you what my Ampera gets in the real world.

I get what you guys are saying to an extent. I'm just saying the difference in price could buy you a lot of fuel and the 335d is a hell of a lot more fun to drive than something that does 0-60 in more than 8 seconds. If you think a car with 425lb-ft of torque is a dog, then I don't know what to tell you. It only feels slightly slower than my Model S, which is exactly where it relates in terms of 0-60 times. It's slightly slower. If you haven't driven the 335d, you probably don't realize just how quiet the diesel version is. I guarantee it's quieter than the ELR when that generator kicks in, especially considering almost every review talks about how loud it is. Of course the 335d is no longer available so you'd have to settle for the 328d or 535d, which are both still way faster and get better mpg on road trips and are much cheaper. Sure, the Volt/Ampera makes some sense at $35k, but the ELR makes absolutely zero sense.

And dpeilow, that's not painting the whole picture of the economy, otherwise my Model S is literally infinitely more economical than your Ampera because it uses zero gas.

 

[GSP]

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So does my BMW 335d, and it also gets better fuel economy and gets to 60 more than 3 seconds faster. Oh, and it's really nice to drive, handles beautifully, and is almost half the price. Weird.

True, the 335d has access to the PHEV "fast charging" network, but electric range and top speed really suck. Big Time. :smile:

PS. Like Zythryn, I no longer find ICE vehicles fun to drive. I don't know how you feel going from your 335d to S60 and back, but whenever I drive my (much quicker and faster) ICEs I think that they are truly great cars, and they are. Then I get in my (slower) Volt and I fall in love all over again. It is just on another level of greatness. I always take the Volt, and my ICEs are lucky to get driven once every six weeks, just to keep them from rusting into one piece.

 

[Gear]

True, the 335d has access to the PHEV "fast charging" network, but electric range and top speed really suck. Big Time. :smile:

PS. Like Zythryn, I no longer find ICE vehicles fun to drive. I don't know how you feel going from your 335d to S60 and back, but whenever I drive my (much quicker and faster) ICEs I think that they are truly great cars, and they are. Then I get in my (slower) Volt and I fall in love all over again. It is just on another level of greatness. I always take the Volt, and my ICEs are lucky to get driven once every six weeks, just to keep them from rusting into one piece.

Oh, I absolutely love my S60 more than the 335d. But that's largely because of things that are unique to the Tesla, like how quick it is, the tech involved, and the Supercharging network. I love electric drive too, but not just because of how quiet and smooth it is. If it did 0-60 in 8.8 seconds like the ELR, I probably wouldn't have bought it. The only reason I have my 335d anymore is because Tesla doesn't take trade-ins. It literally never gets driven.

 

[rolosrevenge]

People who keep making this fuel economy comment totally miss the point. You assume the ELR/Volt/Ampera is never plugged in and/or every journey is over 100 miles.

Let me show you what my Ampera gets in the real world.

View attachment 39191

I don't like those numbers, because it's saying mpg while neglecting all of the consumed kWh in order to get that as if the electricity is somehow summoned from the Aether.

 

[dpeilow]

I get what you guys are saying to an extent. I'm just saying the difference in price could buy you a lot of fuel and the 335d is a hell of a lot more fun to drive than something that does 0-60 in more than 8 seconds.

I'm not convinced. I think the Ampera is just as much fun to drive as my previous Audi 0-60 in 6.0s S3.

If you haven't driven the 335d, you probably don't realize just how quiet the diesel version is. I guarantee it's quieter than the ELR when that generator kicks in, especially considering almost every review talks about how loud it is. Of course the 335d is no longer available so you'd have to settle for the 328d or 535d, which are both still way faster and get better mpg on road trips and are much cheaper. Sure, the Volt/Ampera makes some sense at $35k, but the ELR makes absolutely zero sense.

My mum has a 330d, and I can guarantee that it is much louder than the Ampera running on ICE. The Voltec drive train means it is basically idling, even at highway speed, for all but rapid repeated hard acceleration after the electrical buffer is emptied.

I've seen reviews where they talk about how loud the ICE is in mountain mode. I've never run the car in mountain mode except once to see what it does.

I drove a pre-production Ampera and it was noticeably louder than the final car. I wonder if that is also going on with the ELR?

And dpeilow, that's not painting the whole picture of the economy, otherwise my Model S is literally infinitely more economical than your Ampera because it uses zero gas.

I don't like those numbers, because it's saying mpg while neglecting all of the consumed kWh in order to get that as if the electricity is somehow summoned from the Aether.

I always hear EV owners saying how they are totally free of oil. Well, I'm 90% free of oil but apparently that doesn't count? I guarantee that 249 mpg + electricity used is still way more economical than your diesel, and without all the NOx and particulates.

 

[GSP]

I don't like those numbers, because it's saying mpg while neglecting all of the consumed kWh in order to get that as if the electricity is somehow summoned from the Aether.

You are not the only one. Quoting my actual mpg (375 mpg over 30,000 miles and nearly 3 years of ownership. And my gallons are smaller than David's! :smile gets that reaction from several people. I honestly can't understand how you and the others feel. We all know that this is accomplished by substituting electrical energy for gasoline, it is not a secret. Electricity typically only costs 1/5 as much as gas, and I only pay 1/10 as much. I also have to buy new tires and wiper blades as the car ages and racks up miles. Does that need to go into the mpg calculation as well? I think that electricity, gas, tires, insurance, maintenance, depreciation, etc. all should be included in TCO (total cost of operation), gut only gas or diesel should be included in mpg, and only electricity in kWh/100 miles.

GSP

 

[quartzav]

I'm not convinced. I think the Ampera is just as much fun to drive as my previous Audi 0-60 in 6.0s S3.




My mum has a 330d, and I can guarantee that it is much louder than the Ampera running on ICE. The Voltec drive train means it is basically idling, even at highway speed, for all but rapid repeated hard acceleration after the electrical buffer is emptied.

I've seen reviews where they talk about how loud the ICE is in mountain mode. I've never run the car in mountain mode except once to see what it does.

I drove a pre-production Ampera and it was noticeably louder than the final car. I wonder if that is also going on with the ELR?







I always hear EV owners saying how they are totally free of oil. Well, I'm 90% free of oil but apparently that doesn't count? I guarantee that 249 mpg + electricity used is still way more economical than your diesel, and without all the NOx and particulates.

Volt is certainly holding its own with torque delivery during straight line lower speed (up to ~35 mph) acceleration due to no gear change delay. I won't say my Volt handles as well as a E90 335i Xdrive without sport package...the 2 copies of Volt's ICE I have (production model 2011, 2012) may not be that much louder in volume than 335i but the quality of sound is not pleasing when you do hear it in the cabin.

 

[Zythryn]

Please don't get me wrong. When I say ICE vehicles drive like a dog, I am not referring to the performance. I am referring to the noise, in many cases the smell, and the delay in response.
Sure, this can be minimized the more money you spend, but a much lower cost EV will get you that instant response and a similar priced one will, most of there time, blow the ICE away.

The ELR has a huge advantage over an ICE in terms of smooth, quiet, instant response over any ICE while it is in EV mode.
This is the reason I will never buy one, it only has a 35-40 mile EV range. But if someone thinks they need the old fashioned gas extender, or is a die-hard Caddy fan, the ELR is a good choice. I think GM will find 2-3k of those people a year.

 

[DuncanWatson]

I always hear EV owners saying how they are totally free of oil. Well, I'm 90% free of oil but apparently that doesn't count? I guarantee that 249 mpg + electricity used is still way more economical than your diesel, and without all the NOx and particulates.

You aren't wrong and a PHEV is better than a gashog. But my EV is also running on Hydro plants and nearly 99% free of oil.

I can see how some think the ELR is a halo car and as a 2+2 luxury car will get some sales. But to me it is a step backwards. I would like to see it be better than the volt and it just isn't.

 

[rolosrevenge]

only gas or diesel should be included in mpg, and only electricity in kWh/100 miles.

GSP

Only gas and diesel should be included in mpg, but the m should only be miles traveled on gas or diesel. Anything else is disingenuous. An honest statement would be. It gets 35 mpg when it has to run on gas, but it only runs on gas 10% of the time. I know it makes you feel good that you traveled so many miles with so little gas, and that's why GM put it there, to make you feel good, but it says nothing about the energy efficiency of the car. You could be getting 2 mpg while running on gas and still have high numbers if you never ran on gas. The metric mpg is to convey two things, how far can you drive on a full tank without stopping, and the efficiency of the car. The number thrown around by volt owners does not tell either of those things, and so is meaningless.

Now don't get me wrong. I have no problem with people owning PHEVs and I think that they are a step in the right direction. I'd get a Volt myself it it were bigger, but we need to not throw around misinformation about what it can and can't do.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I know it makes you feel good that you traveled so many miles with so little gas, and that's why GM put it there, to make you feel good, but it says nothing about the energy efficiency of the car.

That's exactly what it's there for and doesn't help data collection. For example, Voltstats can't actually track kWh/100mi efficiency in CD mode because of this reason. Europe uses a similar scheme for their efficiency ratings and I think it's also BS. I like the EPA rating where it breaks it down so that at least you can do some decent estimates of electric and gasoline consumption based on your own use.

 

[Jeff N]

That's exactly what it's there for and doesn't help data collection. For example, Voltstats can't actually track kWh/100mi efficiency in CD mode because of this reason. Europe uses a similar scheme for their efficiency ratings and I think it's also BS. I like the EPA rating where it breaks it down so that at least you can do some decent estimates of electric and gasoline consumption based on your own use.

I don't know what the issue is with kWh energy reporting to VoltStats.net from GM/OnStar. However, it's trivial for a Volt owner to get this data directly from OnStar by logging in to their individual MyVolt.com account. GM also sends each Volt owner a monthly email that summarizes their efficiency and car status (tire pressures, required maintenance, etc.).

I've attached a snapshot of some of the data in my most recent monthly email (from December 5). The overall mpg is only 95 because it includes a road trip to SoCal for Thanksgiving. I typically average 150-200 mpg. The data doesn't directly include hybrid mode gas-only mpg but it's easy to calculate 42.7 mpg from the data which is given.

The electric efficiency is measured from the wall (EPA style) so it includes charging overhead. Although not shown on this image, other online website pages show combined total MPGe. You can calculate a combined gas+electric MPGe of 66.25 from the data here but typically it's more like 85-100 for me. The electric only works out around 120 MPGe. I drive a long commute from San Francisco to Silicon Valley which averages about 115 miles per commute day but I can charge at work.

For comparison, my VoltStats.net data is at:

Volt Stats: Details for Volt #2011-00042 (Jeff N)

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

You aren't wrong and a PHEV is better than a gashog. But my EV is also running on Hydro plants and nearly 99% free of oil.

I can see how some think the ELR is a halo car and as a 2+2 luxury car will get some sales. But to me it is a step backwards. I would like to see it be better than the volt and it just isn't.

I don't think it's a step backwards any more than the Lexus CT200h was a step backwards from the Prius liftback. I hope it adds to sales of PHEVs by getting some Caddy buyers who wouldn't consider a Volt, or it gets Caddy some feedback for the future. I hope it pushes Tesla to get their driver assistance sensors and stage 1 functionality working.

 

[Al Sherman]

I hope it pushes Tesla to get their driver assistance sensors and stage 1 functionality working.

What is "stage 1 functionality" please?

 

[DuncanWatson]

I don't think it's a step backwards any more than the Lexus CT200h was a step backwards from the Prius liftback. I hope it adds to sales of PHEVs by getting some Caddy buyers who wouldn't consider a Volt, or it gets Caddy some feedback for the future. I hope it pushes Tesla to get their driver assistance sensors and stage 1 functionality working.

It costs too much and is less functional than the Volt/$. And the Volt is too expensive already. It is a big step backward. The only way it could be worse is to be a Fuel Cell vehicle for $400k. The Model S is cheaper and better, the Volt is half the price and almost the same.

 

[SteveG3]

Consumer Reports Quick Take on 2015 Cadillac ELR

2015 Cadillac ELR Plug-In Hybrid | First Drive Review - Consumer Reports News

From this past December, 2 minute video and brief article. Short on time, read the second to last paragraph