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Camping Trailer Selection for Model X

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Hi @EcoHeliGuy, curious about your 73 Boler...have you done many longer trips with it and can you share your consumption data, particularly in cold months, with that trailer? You also mentioned Escape in your post, and I'm considering an Escape 17B for long winter road trip in our MX100D. Any rough guesses on consumption with the Escape? We are considering a 13' Boler with bunks as Plan B, forgo the wet bath of and extra insulation of the Escape.

Any guidance/thoughts would be much appreciated before I take the plunge on this with family of four!

Thanks!

View attachment 175407 Trailer I'm interested in:

Airstream
Aliner/chalet
Bigfoot
Escape/scamp
Prolite
Taylor coach
Livin lite


But we cherish our 73 Boler
 
Hi all- need some help gauging the crazy-factor for planning an extensive winter towing expedition with an Escape 17B, my TV is MX100D. I've searched the forums for Escape mentions and they are few with no published Tesla-tow accounts that I can find. Projected route will be a circuit thru Rocky Mtn ski resorts, across Canadian Rockies, west coast tour CA-CAN, and across desert southwest. I'm particularly concerned about consumption in winter due to aero and temp, weight doesn't seem to be too much of an issue. If @JimVandegriff, @ohmman, @mengwong, and @Atlantian could weigh in with their Airstream wisdom, and if @fortytwo and @ecarfan could weigh in with extensive Alto travel would be much appreciated. I need to extrapolate your knowledge to this trailer in colder temps.

Reasons for Escape 17B (The 17 Foot Escape):
- 4 season winter camping (extra insulation/thermal windows, insulated/heated tanks & spigots)
- sleeps 4 with bunks for 2 boys
- wetbath for managing wet ski gear moisture
- reasonable weight
- fiberglass roof can handle roof snow
- reasonable aero profile (?)

The last item is my biggest concern, due to sub-freezing temps, potential for more winter (head)winds, snow tires. I have extensive winter driving experience as a pro driver (old life) and managing range several winters in 75D, have towed extensively in all environments (I don't underestimate the significant challenge of trailer tire grip in winter mtn roads, btw). We will have a VERY flexible schedule to await better weather during transitions, but cold temps will be unavoidable. I plan to draft extensively as safety and trucker patience allows.

Aero/consumption is the thing I need the most help with:
Escape 17B dimensions:
width: 6'8"
height: 8'6"
Ttl length: 17'8"
Hitch weight: 250 lbs (adjust to 300 with front cargo)
Dry weight: 2500 lbs (w/LP, solar, Batts)
GVWR: 4000 lbs
Body Length: 13'8"
Body gap to Tesla: ~4'10" (ref @ohmman CD insights here)
Radiusing of corners seems more abrupt than AS22FB (ref @ohmman trailer vehicle shape CD discoveries)

AS Sport 22 dimensions:
width: 7'4"
height: 9'3"
Ttl Length: 21'8"
Body length: ?
Hitch weight: 422 lbs
Dry Weight: 3634 lbs
GVWR: 4500 lbs

I'm not sure how to estimate a rough CD based on the smaller frontal area of the Escape vs AS22 Sport.

My experience with winter range loss has been roughly ~20% loss due to cold temps, mitigated somewhat by insulating pano roof and use of seat heaters. Snow tire range hit has been negligible on my MS and MX (Michelin X-Ice), which is remarkable! Remains to be seen how extra weight of trailer will affect tire loss due to extra pressure on tread.

Re: EVTO, can I reasonably plan Model X HP with 15-20 Power Setting? I'd be surprised if this Escape trailer required a 30 Power Setting...

MX100D battery size: ~102.4kWh total capacity, 98.4 kWh of usable capacity (ref: wk057 data)
MX90D battery size: ~85.8 kWh total capacity, 81.8 kWh usable (ref: wk057 data)
My car should have 20% more base range than ohmmans MX90D. Sub-freezing temps should subtract ~30% with battery pre-heating at RV stops, and supercharging will take 15% longer due to battery heating.

Mitigations planned:
- Ritualistic battery pre-heating, range mode for most of each segment
- Minimize gap distance between trailer/tesla with hitch mods and aero cargo box on the tongue
- remove unnecessary exterior camper drag items (awning, steps, etc)
- Winter-appropriate clothing for drive segments

That's a lot to unpack in one post, any insights appreciated. This expedition may be too audacious and unrealistic, which is why I'm polling the collective wisdom first. ;)
But skiing is our first love and sole addiction, and the outdoors are calling during a unique and substantial window of opportunity in our lives. Thanks so much for weighing in on these various forums, your wisdom and insights are proving invaluable to planning this adventure!

The Airstream Flying Cloud 19 has a hitch weight of 550 lbs. which is over Tesla's limit of 500 lbs. I don't have experience with the Safari Condo trailers but I did briefly look at buying one until I found out delivery times were 16 to 18 months.

I finally bought the Airstream Sport 22FB (same as @JimVandegriff, @ohmman and @mengwong) for the following reasons:
  1. Has a full bathroom with separate shower (not a wet bath).
  2. Is only 7' 3" wide which makes it more aerodynamic than 8' wide trailers.
  3. Has a base weight of 3600 lbs. (4500 GVWR) and a hitch weight of 422 lbs. which is within Tesla's limits.
  4. Has a separate main sleeping and dinette area.
  5. Can sleep up to 4 people.
I was able to fit 3 solar panels on the roof. One 100 watt and two 50 watt for a combined power of 200W. If you like I can take a picture of the roof so you can see the layout. I believe there is room for additional panels.
 
@Webby,

The frontal area of your Escape 17B would be 8160 in^2, compared to 9768 in^2 for the Airstream. These are both approximations, since the Airstream height includes the AC unit, and that doesn't stretch the entire roofline. It also doesn't include the small but not trivial frontal area of the awning apparatus. Regardless, my guess is that with a slightly less ideal Cd on your Escape vs. the Airstream, overall drag would be similar. My guess is that in comfortable weather, you'd consume approximately as much as we do (550-575Wh/mi at 55mph in the flats) if not a little less, and slightly more than someone like @ecarfan does with his Alto.

I do not have good winter data on towing to share. I know that @ecarfan has been traveling with his camper, but no snow/mountain travel as far as I'm aware. My intuitive guess is that you shouldn't expect a 20% penalty on your already increased consumption. I think whatever the fixed penalty is for travel in winter (let's say something like 70Wh/mi just for napkin math reasons) would be applicable to towing plus maybe a little wiggle. The increased consumption in winter is usually a factor of battery heating and climate control, but can also be related to road conditions. Road conditions would likely scale with the rig overall. But climate and battery concerns will only affect the vehicle's individual consumption, if that makes sense.

Other factors to consider are limited regenerative braking when the pack is cold, which could significantly eat into your consumption, and limited power available with a cold pack. These are easy to work around if you're leaving a campsite, though - finish charging the battery close to when you're departing, and run climate control for an hour before you go.

Good luck, sounds like a cool adventure.
 
Thanks for quick response @ohmman!

So you're guessing ~620-650Wh/mi in sub-freezing, ceteris paribus? Seems to line up with EVTO in the some routes (660Wh/mi) thru the Rockies, but EVTO projects 715Wh/mi @56mph across the Plains states in January. Settings MX HP, PF 15, Speed -10.

Regarding data capture, I'd like to collect as much cold-towing data as I can for the collective during the trip. What App/methods did you find to be best for data collection? And didn't you post your own data somewhere outside of the Towing Airstream thread (thought I saw it but can't find it now). TeslaFi, Stats for Tesla, Tezlab, Teslalog? I see EVTO developer has opted not to tap into API for data, out of security concerns.

Thanks!

@Webby,

The frontal area of your Escape 17B would be 8160 in^2, compared to 9768 in^2 for the Airstream. These are both approximations, since the Airstream height includes the AC unit, and that doesn't stretch the entire roofline. It also doesn't include the small but not trivial frontal area of the awning apparatus. Regardless, my guess is that with a slightly less ideal Cd on your Escape vs. the Airstream, overall drag would be similar. My guess is that in comfortable weather, you'd consume approximately as much as we do (550-575Wh/mi at 55mph in the flats) if not a little less, and slightly more than someone like @ecarfan does with his Alto.

I do not have good winter data on towing to share. I know that @ecarfan has been traveling with his camper, but no snow/mountain travel as far as I'm aware. My intuitive guess is that you shouldn't expect a 20% penalty on your already increased consumption. I think whatever the fixed penalty is for travel in winter (let's say something like 70Wh/mi just for napkin math reasons) would be applicable to towing plus maybe a little wiggle. The increased consumption in winter is usually a factor of battery heating and climate control, but can also be related to road conditions. Road conditions would likely scale with the rig overall. But climate and battery concerns will only affect the vehicle's individual consumption, if that makes sense.

Other factors to consider are limited regenerative braking when the pack is cold, which could significantly eat into your consumption, and limited power available with a cold pack. These are easy to work around if you're leaving a campsite, though - finish charging the battery close to when you're departing, and run climate control for an hour before you go.

Good luck, sounds like a cool adventure.
 
TeslaFi, Stats for Tesla, Tezlab, Teslalog?
@ohmman sent me TeslaFi data for many of his trailer trips to help refine EVTO's towing models. I also had data from a number of other users with different trailers, trips and towing styles.

You might also try the Max Speed setting in My Cars on some segments vs the speed adjust. Max speed will cap you at a speed where Speed Adjust reduces all speeds above about 40 MPH by the sa number. Max Speed is good for places like California that cap your trailer speed, where in NV you can go as fast as you want. The Max Speed and SA are applied to Googles expected speeds. These speeds are generally all over the place and sometimes are an average, the speed limit or whatever they pulled out of the hat.

I see EVTO developer has opted not to tap into API for data, out of security concerns.
This is correct. I just don't feel there is a strong and secure system in place for exchanging car data and I certainly don't want to be the gateway to your car being hacked. Right now I don't keep any personal data in the app at all. There is no registration in the app and the subscription validation is done in the blind via your relationship to your store.
 
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Thanks for quick response @ohmman!

So you're guessing ~620-650Wh/mi in sub-freezing, ceteris paribus? Seems to line up with EVTO in the some routes (660Wh/mi) thru the Rockies, but EVTO projects 715Wh/mi @56mph across the Plains states in January. Settings MX HP, PF 15, Speed -10.

Regarding data capture, I'd like to collect as much cold-towing data as I can for the collective during the trip. What App/methods did you find to be best for data collection? And didn't you post your own data somewhere outside of the Towing Airstream thread (thought I saw it but can't find it now). TeslaFi, Stats for Tesla, Tezlab, Teslalog? I see EVTO developer has opted not to tap into API for data, out of security concerns.

Thanks!
My 70Wh/mi penalty was a barely educated guess, so I don’t want to make any predictions. Travel could be windy, wet, or anything else.

I used TeslaFi and had to adjust their settings to match my consumption, but it’s a useful tool so you don’t have to remember to take a photo of the trip screen each stop.

You might also try the Max Speed setting in My Cars on some segments vs the speed adjust
Definitely this. Speed adjust isn’t the best tool for towing, but max speed is excellent.
 
@ohmman sent me TeslaFi data for many of his trailer trips to help refine EVTO's towing models. I also had data from a number of other users with different trailers, trips and towing styles.

You might also try the Max Speed setting in My Cars on some segments vs the speed adjust. Max speed will cap you at a speed where Speed Adjust reduces all speeds above about 40 MPH by the sa number. Max Speed is good for places like California that cap your trailer speed, where in NV you can go as fast as you want. The Max Speed and SA are applied to Googles expected speeds. These speeds are generally all over the place and sometimes are an average, the speed limit or whatever they pulled out of the hat.

This is correct. I just don't feel there is a strong and secure system in place for exchanging car data and I certainly don't want to be the gateway to your car being hacked. Right now I don't keep any personal data in the app at all. There is no registration in the app and the subscription validation is done in the blind via your relationship to your store.

Makes sense, understand your trepidation there...

Do you feel TeslaFi is still best method, gives you best data? Btw, I subscribed to EVTO, thanks for building such a useful tool. Now I just need to become more proficient with it. Is there a function/setting in EVTO to tell me what Max Speed or Max Wh/mi is necessary to reach a certain "Red" waypoint, rather than just making it red? Perhaps keep it Red to denote the risk factor, but indicate if dropping speed/consumption by 10% would allow me to reach that stop?
 
My 70Wh/mi penalty was a barely educated guess, so I don’t want to make any predictions. Travel could be windy, wet, or anything else.

No worries, I'll use your guess at my own risk. But I really appreciate you offering the gut estimate since you've towed so far in varied (and mountainous) terrain.

Was there ever a time in your trip for which a 20-30kWh battery bank would've been a useful emergency reserve (E.g. your narrow brush after being unable to recharge at the Park, IIRC?)? My thought is a significantly-sized Tesla module Pack in the RV that serves as boondocking supply paired with solar for near-100% electric living, AND it could be used in an emergency to charge the MX via short NEMA 14-50 to get down the road another 30 miles or so?
 
Btw, I subscribed to EVTO, thanks for building such a useful tool. Now I just need to become more proficient with it. Is there a function/setting in EVTO to tell me what Max Speed or Max Wh/mi is necessary to reach a certain "Red" waypoint, rather than just making it red? Perhaps keep it Red to denote the risk factor, but indicate if dropping speed/consumption by 10% would allow me to reach that stop?
There really is no "what if" feature that can play around with speed etc. automatically. You have to do that yourself.

A few words of caution/suggestion:
  • No need to Refresh Auto Chargers if you are just playing with the settings in Edit Segment Details unless you want it to change the chargers selected
  • With trailer towing I usually set everything close manually and then do the Refresh Auto Chargers to get the chargers I need. Usually, outside of urban areas, you will probably end up with every one in a succession
  • There are both settings for Speed Adjust and Power Factor in My Cars (the default for new trips) and each segment via Edit Segment Details.
  • If you change the Max Speed in My Cars you will have to make a routing change in your trip for it to take effect (delete and replace a waypoint for example). It's a quirk for this one setting since it's outside of the current trip. The others work directly on a trip so no need for this.
And I assume you have seen this:
Towing with EVTO | Digital Auto Guides
There are all sorts of other tips and techniques that you can apply once you get the basics down and are more comfortable with how all of this works.
 
Was there ever a time in your trip for which a 20-30kWh battery bank would've been a useful emergency reserve (E.g. your narrow brush after being unable to recharge at the Park, IIRC?)? My thought is a significantly-sized Tesla module Pack in the RV that serves as boondocking supply paired with solar for near-100% electric living, AND it could be used in an emergency to charge the MX via short NEMA 14-50 to get down the road another 30 miles or so?
Not really. To me, this seems like just one more thing to worry about. I'd suggest avoiding that line of research until after you've had your rig for a while. There is a discussion ongoing at the Airstream forum about someone using a salvage Tesla pack to power their RV but not for propulsion. They've discussed Powerwalls, but those appear to be designed for fixed installations.
 
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Ok thanks for the tips/tricks @aesculus will circle back to the guide for more insight.

There really is no "what if" feature that can play around with speed etc. automatically. You have to do that yourself.

A few words of caution/suggestion:
  • No need to Refresh Auto Chargers if you are just playing with the settings in Edit Segment Details unless you want it to change the chargers selected
  • With trailer towing I usually set everything close manually and then do the Refresh Auto Chargers to get the chargers I need. Usually, outside of urban areas, you will probably end up with every one in a succession
  • There are both settings for Speed Adjust and Power Factor in My Cars (the default for new trips) and each segment via Edit Segment Details.
  • If you change the Max Speed in My Cars you will have to make a routing change in your trip for it to take effect (delete and replace a waypoint for example). It's a quirk for this one setting since it's outside of the current trip. The others work directly on a trip so no need for this.
And I assume you have seen this:
Towing with EVTO | Digital Auto Guides
There are all sorts of other tips and techniques that you can apply once you get the basics down and are more comfortable with how all of this works.
 
Just found this site today started by a pioneer who inspired me: fortytwo

There is many treads around towing a camper with Tesla X. Some are very informative like the one started by ohmman

I which we could find everything under one tread. What do you think?
Following is a post about a new caravan from Alto. They are trying to develop for electric car!
 
Here is an excel sheet that makes an abstract of the common caravan used by Tesla X owner. Compared with all Alto models. As a F17473 owner at the time, I have worked( volunteering as retired) with Safari-Condo in this project using all the info I got from most of you. Safari-Condo worked with an engineer and "virtual tunnel" to study the drag of all their model and tried to find other options. Naturally considering their manufacturing limits and convenience for customer. The new A2124 is a very good option. Presently I did travel 2000 miles with the duo. My wife and I already have reservation for 3 months in Florida and south states in January 2020. So I will get more mileage. It is specially important to compare with numbers of owners that are in the south with over 80F temperature compare to our 68-70F in Canada in the summer!
Common caravan comparison 08-2019.JPG
 
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Is anybody towing the larger Endless Highways model of the Bowlus? We looked at the Bowlus last week and it's so much more impressive in person. I like quite a few of the features of the EH better but it's 700 lbs heavier (3200 lb dry weight vs 2500), 3" higher (8'6" versus 8'3"), 2' longer (25' 9" versus 23' 9"). Wondering how much those differences would affect range. I have a MX P100D with Ludicrous and 22" wheels. I know I'd have to swab the wheels out for 20" and probably should even if I got the smaller model.
 
On my Excel sheet, forgot to say that speed is 55mph. I took it as a standard since it used by almost everybody towing with Tesla X to establish their average. I personally drive at 89 km/hr to be at the same speed used in USA.
When towing my F1743 at 55mph on a level dry road with no headwind I typically get anywhere from 485Wh/mi to maybe 520. I’ve actually had trip segments where I have used even less energy, but that is uncommon.

Your spreadsheet states you get 499Wh/mi towing your A2124. I’m not sure how you arrived at that exact number. I give a range because there are other variables, such as the nature of the road surface, air temperature, etc.

So we get basically the same.
 
Is anybody towing the larger Endless Highways model of the Bowlus? We looked at the Bowlus last week and it's so much more impressive in person. I like quite a few of the features of the EH better but it's 700 lbs heavier (3200 lb dry weight vs 2500), 3" higher (8'6" versus 8'3"), 2' longer (25' 9" versus 23' 9"). Wondering how much those differences would affect range. I have a MX P100D with Ludicrous and 22" wheels. I know I'd have to swab the wheels out for 20" and probably should even if I got the smaller model.
I suspect that the Bowlus Endless Highways will use slightly more energy to tow because it has an increased frontal area and it is heavier. But so far we have no data for that model, as far as I know.
 
Is anybody towing the larger Endless Highways model of the Bowlus? We looked at the Bowlus last week and it's so much more impressive in person. ...

Couldn't hurt to ask Helena and Geneva if they have a "demo" model. You could take it out for a 150 mile round trip @55mph on flat terrain to get an idea. Maybe @jackbauer could give you insight since he worked with them on getting consumption estimates when the original Road Chief went on sale.
 
There are so many variables when towing, it probably is going to be hard to give someone reliable data on what their current draw will be when going down their road with their trailer behind.

Think it might just be something that they need to find out by themselves (the horror:)

Will be interesting to see if the new RAVEN has more range than an equilivent other Model X.