And likely has more compatibility problems with CCS stations than the pass-through adapter will have.
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gglockner
Member
...because Setec/Lectron is reverse-engineered, whereas the passive adapter uses native Tesla charger electronics inside the vehicle.
That said, since EvHub is located in Ukraine, the war must make it virtually impossible to run their business.
Finally, I saw a rumor earlier this week that Tesla will ship their official CCS adapter in North America around mid-year. Let's hope that happens.
Yes. We read in TMC forums that the Setec adapter people are seemingly in a running compatibility battle with Tesla concerning software. If I understand correctly, that adapter has internal electronics, a battery, and upgradable firmware. And the latter can be in conflict, or not, with Tesla car software updates.
I am just glad not to have to depend on a CCS1 (or CHAdeMO) adapter right now (like folks travelling through more rural areas might). (Though like many customers, I would like a reasonably-priced, fully-compatible CCS1 adapter for Models S/X, once Tesla gets around to releasing it.)
Although the focus is on Type 2-to-TPC adapters, this Thread covers some of the issues with the aftermarket, third-party pass-through adapters. The comment about "suicide adapters" in particular attracted my attention.
In conclusion, everything I read ultimately says to me, "Wait for a (foolproof) Tesla adapter." (But again, I am fortunate not to be in a critical situation about charging availability.)
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Not only that, the Setec adapter has compatibility problems with the CCS stations themselves.
The only thing I will say is that the Ukraine post has said they are still delivering stuff. Evhub has a shipment due at the end of the month. I hope they can continue operating.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
It seems you would only buy either of those adapters if you are desperate to get something now (and don't want to pay $900 for the CHAdeMO, which is a rather high price.)
If you don't have the CCS chip, I would wait. If you can't wait, I would rent a CdM adapter when doing a road trip. If you can't wait and need it regularly to charge, I would possibly buy a CdM or Setec and try to sell it as soon as you don't need it before the price drops. Once Tesla sells the adapter in the USA, nobody will want any of the others.
- Setec -- known to be unreliable, expensive and likely to continue to be unreliable as Tesla apparently blocks it when they can. Your only choice today if you don't have the CCS chip other than CdM. Reported to do more than 50kw.
- CdM -- Tesla certified, it works reliably, very bulky, only does 50KW, discontinued, and CdM is the losing standard in the charging standards battle and will wane with time. Also very expensive on eBay, and resale price will plummet when Tesla adapter comes out
- Pass-through EVHub -- should work if you have the CCS chip, but probably 2.5 times the price of the coming official Tesla adapter. Also the risk that any problem in a 150kw part can be catastrophic, so you are betting on the quality of the maker. Which may be fine, I don't want to unfairly deprecate them but rather am saying you want high confidence.
- Tesla adapter. Right now you can order it from Korea for $250, but you must have CCS chip. The obvious best choice in the long run. Widely suspected Tesla will offer a kit later this year including CCS chip upgrade and adapter. Adapter probably close to $200 in USA considering $250 price in Korea. Combo of adapter and upgrade price unknown, guessed at around $500. The only downside -- you have to wait, and who knows how long with Tesla? They said it was coming late last year when they discontinued the CdM adapter.
If you don't have the CCS chip, I would wait. If you can't wait, I would rent a CdM adapter when doing a road trip. If you can't wait and need it regularly to charge, I would possibly buy a CdM or Setec and try to sell it as soon as you don't need it before the price drops. Once Tesla sells the adapter in the USA, nobody will want any of the others.
FalconFour
Member
I have an unhealthy habit of playing angel's advocate against hellfire-preaching 
So here goes!
Illustration is even better. But it sounds like that's referring to some sort of unknown plug that has no latching (not perhaps locking, as we know it) mechanism at all, and could just be pulled out by tugging on the cable. Of course that would be bad! But because CCS has a latch with an electronic switch on the button, it knows when you're pressing it, and it cuts current immediately when you're pressing it. Thus for our NA purposes, there's really no such thing as what that thread calls a "suicide adapter" here - all the adapters we have are latched/sensed. The little pin-push-lock is just an additional layer beyond that.
And lastly, always worth mentioning... anyone that doesn't have the CCS adapter support can get it! (At least in 3/Y that I know of).
To tell if you have a Gen3 or Gen4:
- open the charge port door and insert your J1772 adapter
- push the door closed or press the close button
- does the door try closing, then re-open? You have Gen3.
- does the door just stay flopped over the J1772 adapter like "we live like this now, I guess"? You have Gen4.
And if CCS adapter support isn't enabled, you have the "stripped" Gen4 without the PLC hardware.
If you have Gen4, the CCS upgrade is as simple as swapping your charge port ECU (behind the charge port, in the trunk) with one that does have the hardware. Simple, over-the-counter $150 ECU you can buy direct from Tesla by scheduling service for "other" in the app.
If you have Gen3, more of this thread is relevant to you: Retrofit CCS compatibility onto earlier (NA) Model 3 - DIY approach - but it involves the $150 ECU and an adapter I've lovingly termed A Bundle of Wires(tm).
So here goes!Really, the only risks in a passive adapter are two: that of HV isolation (enough spacing between leads/no arcing potential/no potential for flexible wires to short to places they oughtn't, or to get close enough to start an arc), and that of conductivity/resistance. The latter is my higher concern - the latter is what would melt ports. Good news is... that's why my Gen3->Gen4 mod prioritizes port temperature sensing and actually pushes the threshold a little lower (so the car thinks the port is warmer than it is - not colder). Both the CCS handle and the car port have thermal sensors, and charging rate slows down if something's getting hot. Being as though both sides of the adapter have such sensors (port and handle), there's not much to worry about there. As for HV isolation/arcing, really no need to worry there as long as the adapter is well designed (and EVHub has been through quite a few iterations to get that part right!)
I was actually a bit frustrated in trying to dig this reference out. That linked post just references "those adapters" but doesn't draw an arrow directly to what "those" they're referring to (I couldn't make sense of what was being said leading up to it). Quoting is important
Illustration is even better. But it sounds like that's referring to some sort of unknown plug that has no latching (not perhaps locking, as we know it) mechanism at all, and could just be pulled out by tugging on the cable. Of course that would be bad! But because CCS has a latch with an electronic switch on the button, it knows when you're pressing it, and it cuts current immediately when you're pressing it. Thus for our NA purposes, there's really no such thing as what that thread calls a "suicide adapter" here - all the adapters we have are latched/sensed. The little pin-push-lock is just an additional layer beyond that.And lastly, always worth mentioning... anyone that doesn't have the CCS adapter support can get it! (At least in 3/Y that I know of).
To tell if you have a Gen3 or Gen4:
- open the charge port door and insert your J1772 adapter
- push the door closed or press the close button
- does the door try closing, then re-open? You have Gen3.
- does the door just stay flopped over the J1772 adapter like "we live like this now, I guess"? You have Gen4.
And if CCS adapter support isn't enabled, you have the "stripped" Gen4 without the PLC hardware.If you have Gen4, the CCS upgrade is as simple as swapping your charge port ECU (behind the charge port, in the trunk) with one that does have the hardware. Simple, over-the-counter $150 ECU you can buy direct from Tesla by scheduling service for "other" in the app.
If you have Gen3, more of this thread is relevant to you: Retrofit CCS compatibility onto earlier (NA) Model 3 - DIY approach - but it involves the $150 ECU and an adapter I've lovingly termed A Bundle of Wires(tm).
Good summary.
- CHAdeMO adapter is/was for sale on San Francisco Craig's List for $350*. (And I saw another recently one for $550.) So maybe prices (on CL at least) are more reasonable?
- I don't know for sure, but I thought I had read that Tesla has kind of clamped down on the exporting of South Korean CCS1 adapters to Tesla customers out of the country?
- I am unsure (and have not seen any definite evidence so far) whether the SK CCS1 adapter will work with Models S/X. (I suspect not.)
- Will the CHadeMO adapter with TPC plug lose all value once a North American CCS1 adapter is released? I don't know. One possible market: owners of TPC (proprietary) charging-port cars (from North America, Japan, South Korea) taken (temporarily or permanently) to Europe, Oceania, and other areas using the Type 2/CCS2 charging standards. I read that Supercharging for such cars taken there is difficult or impossible, but that CHAdeMO charging may remain a fall-back on-the-road DC resource for those drivers. (But I am reminded that if the owner is willing to spend additional money, a car may be able to be converted to the Type 2 [MS/X] or CCS2 [M3/Y] charging standard, I believe.)
* I have no relationship with that seller or item. Use appropriate caution.
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bradtem
Robocar consultant
Yes, you want thermal detection. I don't want to say I have any evidence to believe anybody's adapter is unsafe. I want there to be a market of aftermarket products. But I can't avoid the thought that if Tesla's adapter were to fail and melt, Tesla would pay for the damage and it might be harder with an aftermarket product. Maybe I am wrong and Tesla would fight you tooth and nail. EVHub might come through though it's a smaller company. It's a tough call. However, the big thing is the EVHub is $525 and you can get Tesla's from Korea for probably around $300 and eventually get it for $200 here so it doesn't seem a hard choice.I have an unhealthy habit of playing angel's advocate against hellfire-preaching
Really, the only risks in a passive adapter are two: that of HV isolation (enough spacing between leads/no arcing potential/no potential for flexible wires to short to places they oughtn't, or to get close enough to start an arc), and that of conductivity/resistance. The latter is my higher concern - the latter is what would melt ports. Good news is... that's why my Gen3->Gen4 mod prioritizes port temperature sensing and actually pushes the threshold a little lower (so the car thinks the port is warmer than it is - not colder). Both the CCS handle and the car port have thermal sensors, and charging rate slows down if something's getting hot. Being as though both sides of the adapter have such sensors (port and handle), there's not much to worry about there. As for HV isolation/arcing, really no need to worry there as long as the adapter is well designed (and EVHub has been through quite a few iterations to get that part right!)
bradtem
Robocar consultant
Yes, it won't lose all value. I am amazed at the current price these are getting -- Craigslist sales would be an anomaly, and in fact if somebody is foolish enough to sell on CL for $350 it is more than likely the buyer would just sell it for $900 in eBay the next day unless you know them.
As to what price it will settle to? Well, if people can get the CCS adapter for $200, it's going to be a tough sell. If it's $500 for a CCS+controller upgrade, then perhaps people will still pay a couple hundred for CdM adapters. But when you combine all the factors:
- The CdM is limited to 50kw
- The CdM is much, much bulkier
- CdM has lost the war, CdM only stations are extremely rare, and CCS only (or 4-8 CCS and 1 CdM) stations are becoming more common
However, I predict a glut of them on the market after the CCS adapter becomes available. I mean pretty much everybody who has a CdM and has the CCS chip who can get anything halfway decent for it will be interested in selling it to buy a CCS adapter, and not want to carry both. I suspect too many people will be willing to take anything over $100 for it just for the room it takes in the car.
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gglockner
Member
Speaking of CHAdeMO: I pulled the trigger and bought a new CHAdeMO adapter on eBay earlier this month for $800*. The seal was broken on the outer box but everything inside was sealed and pristine. I tested it when it arrived last Friday. CHAdeMO is an exercise in frustration. First charger was broken. Second was in use. At the third, it took me 5-10 min of trial-and-error before I figured out all the hokey-pokey steps to get everything communicating correctly. CHAdeMO gives me renewed appreciation for Superchargers.
* Why? Because we have some trips planned late spring that are beyond the Supercharger network and I doubt our 2018 Model X will be upgradeable to CCS. And getting delivery of a refresh Model X is a whole 'nother matter.
* Why? Because we have some trips planned late spring that are beyond the Supercharger network and I doubt our 2018 Model X will be upgradeable to CCS. And getting delivery of a refresh Model X is a whole 'nother matter.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
Oh, the CCS/CdM networks are not nearly as reliable as the Tesla supercharging network. Some of that is Tesla doing a good job. Some of it is the fact that Tesla stations have large numbers of chargers, so even if one breaks it's not a big deal. Some is the fact that almost no fast charging network is a business, not even Tesla's, and so the incentives to keep them maintained are wrong. Tesla chargers are there to sell cars, not electricity. EA is there to help VW pay a fine. EVGo is trying to be a business and a few others.
My first few attempts with my CdM adapter did get a few problems, but I eventually got the hang of it and got it to work most places, except an odd station at Mt. Robson Provincial Park where you have to do the reverse of the instructions and put the adapter in the car first, then plug in the cable! But now there is a supercharger at Jasper so this is not as important anyway.
Can I ask; how come? I am not ssaying you are wrong; just curious. Older Model X is up-gradable in Europe (to use CCS2), I think.
gglockner
Member
Gut feel, based on the response I got from Tesla when I asked about adding Autopilot to our 2014 Model S ("no, but we can take it as a trade on a new car").
Those are nothing alike. They were very clear up front that autopilot affects a HUGE number of systems in the car and relies on an entirely new computer to run it. Musk was asked about adding autopilot to old cars like that, and he made the analogy to a human getting an entire spine transplant. It is ridiculously, horribly difficult and invasive to try to put all of that system into old cars, so Tesla isn't going to do it. The old cars don't have any of the cameras or radar and no place to mount them and no wiring connections that go there. They don't have mechanisms to move the steering wheel, and on and on.
But retrofitting CCS is only part of the charging communication system. That would be more likely possible but not guaranteed.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I don't have one myself so can't verify, but I've seen it claimed multiple times that the CCS connector does not lock to the Setec adapter, and you can just pull it out directly, which creates an arc risk.I was actually a bit frustrated in trying to dig this reference out. That linked post just references "those adapters" but doesn't draw an arrow directly to what "those" they're referring to (I couldn't make sense of what was being said leading up to it). Quoting is important
Setec CCS to Tesla Adapter
. If you don't have a house or live in an apartment complex with your own charger, having the CCS adapter is going to make life a lot easier Exactly my situation in Australia, where I've probably used third party CCS2 chargers (no adapter needed of course) more than Tesla Superchargers as they...
teslamotorsclub.com
CCS Adapter for North America
I suppose, but if that's the case, why push out the firmware that supports it and notes in the car configuration if it's enabled? They'd apparently been shipping cars in North America with CCS ECUs since 2020, without showing this in the firmware, so why pick a time to start showing it when they...
teslamotorsclub.com
Let me be positive, here. I think you will be OK. See Model X CCS Upgrade for an example of how it will probably/hopefully be in North America.
