CCS Adapter for North America

[bradtem]

Actually, you're about 25 years late. This battle already happened once in the 1990's. GM came up with the Inductive charging with the charger off board for the EV1. Toyota and Dolphin adopted this as well. The obstructionist SAE J-1772 committee countered with the original AVCON standard that required off board chargers. Ford and Honda jumped on it.
Standards are such great things.

Oh, I know the reasons we took the path of onboard charger. When you are trying to get a new powertrain going, you want to make it as easy as possible to get charging in lots of places, so you want those chargers to be cheap. What's odd of course is that EVSEs are so expensive considering there is actually almost nothing in them but a cable, plug, relay and the simplest of electronics.

There are some advantages of charger-in-car, namely that the charger is tuned to the needs of that car. However, portable charger-in-trunk solves that but then you need two chargers, the one in your home and the portable. It's a chicken and egg problem not easily solved. Though it's interesting to note that even with fact that DC charging is always done with external charger, it was flexible enough to adapt to 800v for the move to 350kw even though initially it was all around 400v. It's not an easy call. If I build a new type of battery that needs fancy charging, charger-with-car makes sense and may still be needed. But with charger-in-station you can get innovation and new chargers that do things better and do things that are too expensive to put in the car. Of course another option is that you put a DC powered charger in the car to do the fancy stuff, which takes DC input and relies on the fact it can command any voltage over the supported range of voltages, and the unit with the car does the rest. Flexible though a touch more expensive.

 

[Jeff N]

I'm not sure if you understood my previous post, but the point in that post is something was defective in the Bolt case (the OP filed a NHTSA complaint), just that the OP claims it's a connector issue, while you seem to feel it was a car side issue. I'm not saying this happens in a CCS session where both sides are functioning as designed, if that was the impression I was giving.

You seem to be stating this singular claim as if it establishes a fact about CCS arcing even though multiple aspects of the initial claim were unreliable and no investigation of the claim has been completed yet. I think it’s premature to reach conclusions about what actually happened.

 

[MP3Mike]

You seem to be stating this singular claim as if it establishes a fact about CCS arcing even though multiple aspects of the initial claim were unreliable and no investigation of the claim has been completed yet. I think it’s premature to reach conclusions about what actually happened.

There is also the issue that Tesla claims that an arc is possible when using the Setec adapter, which is why they keep trying to block it. So Tesla thinks it is a real issue.

 

[Jeff N]

IChargePoint AC EVSEs don't really care; they'll still energize. I've charged at stations that had broken latches before. Even if the connector can sense that the latch is broken, it's possible to override it by holding the latch and connector in the position it expects them to be (which is the logical thing someone is going to try if he/she needs a charge and the connector is broken!).

Well, I’ll agree to this. J1772 is mostly concerned with accidental arcing when unplugging during active DC charging.

 

[Jeff N]

There is also the issue that Tesla claims that an arc is possible when using the Setec adapter, which is why they keep trying to block it. So Tesla thinks it is a real issue.

That’s because the Setec (and EVHUB) adapters are missing the emulation of the vehicle-side electro-mechanical latch, as I understand it.

Tesla’s CCS Type 1 adapter correctly emulates the vehicle-side latch by mechanically latching the CCS plug onto the adapter during the period when the adapter is physically inserted into the car.

 

[MP3Mike]

That’s because the Setec (and EVHUB) adapters are missing the emulation of the vehicle-side electro-mechanical latch, as I understand it.

Tesla’s CCS Type 1 adapter correctly emulates the vehicle-side latch by mechanically latching the CCS plug onto the adapter during the period when the adapter is physically inserted into the car.

I thought that was what this was all about. That there is an arc flash risk with the Setec and EVhub CCS adapters because they don't lock the cable on to the adapter when in use.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I have to admit, when I lost mine I was thinking of getting one of the knock-offs which have been seen close to $50 and I might have been fooled. It's just copper and plastic. But on doing a google search the Tesla official one showed up and I learned the new price. Most people don't shop for these until you lose one. Some people buy them if they have a J1772 charger in their house and want to leave the adapter on it and keep another in the car. At some point Tesla might end up putting both a Tesla connector and a CCS/J1772 in the charging dock. Of course in Europe they just gave up on the superior Tesla connector because the legal regime and other factors pushed to CCS2.

In Europe they were already using Type 2 for AC charging so they were already compatible for destination charging. Plus AC charging is BYOC there.

 

[FalconFour]

Well that's all great in theory/on paper except the fact that as demonstrated above

Uhm, well, the only grounds I'm arguing on are that this hellfire freakout preaching is all about theoreticals/paper thinking, but in practical reality it never happens.

Where was that demonstrated? Following the link in your post some ways back, it was a thread someone posted that appears not to understand how any of this works or what the safety mechanisms are (is blaming EA for bad design of a plug that appears to be damaged). If I were to guess, given that OP in that thread never came back with any more evidence or interaction, I'd guess the latch was broken off that plug, and they (or someone) managed to rip out the cable while it was charging. No matter how you slice it, it's an extreme edge case - a broken latch AND someone yanking the plug out without stopping.

Such damage would almost have to be intentionally caused - definitely not something that just happens naturally with all the levels of safety that both the car and the station have.

 

[Genie]

Megawatt chargers? What gauge wire is code for 2500 amps? The charging cable and plug need to be manageable by people of all sizes and strengths, like the ones Tesla uses now.

 

[Jeff N]

I thought that was what this was all about. That there is an arc flash risk with the Setec and EVhub CCS adapters because they don't lock the cable on to the adapter when in use.

There seem to be broader claims about CCS arcing risk being made here and I was responding to that.

 

[FalconFour]

I thought that was what this was all about. That there is an arc flash risk with the Setec and EVhub CCS adapters because they don't lock the cable on to the adapter when in use.

Jesus, now we're elevating this madness to "an arc flash risk"? Do y'all even know what an arc flash IS?

Let's try to stop using terms that elicit emotional reactions that are far greater than the actual risk in question. None of this is possible with CCS. The potential for an arc, sure - and the potential for damage, sure. But NONE of that is "arc flash" - a very dangerous thing that becomes a possibility in the thousands of volts and amps.

But these risks are VERY LOW with any plug that doesn't have a mechanical "latch locker". Why? Because the proximity signal tells both the car and the EVSE that you're pressing the latch, which instantly drops the current to zero. You can't pull the plug out without pushing that button. Like, physically... you can't. Doesn't matter if the latch lock is present or not. The only way you're unplugging that cable is by pressing the button first... and the button makes the car and EVSE stop everything, instantly.

Except in the case of Setec, which is apparently a piece of crap that ignores the prox pin, and relies on the EVSE to notice that its button is being pressed. That's a sin, but even then... you're limited to 50kW, 150a or so. You ain't getting an "arc flash" out of it.

Stop with the hellfire preaching!

 

[MP3Mike]

Jesus, now we're elevating this madness to "an arc flash risk"? Do y'all even know what an arc flash IS?

I'm only going by what Tesla says, and I would think they would know best:

 

[e of pi]

I'm not 100% tesla is that precise in their use of the English language given their advertising of Full Self-Driving that their manual wants to be very clear is not self-driving even a little and should always be monitored with complete and total attention all the time?

 

[bradtem]

In Europe they were already using Type 2 for AC charging so they were already compatible for destination charging. Plus AC charging is BYOC there.

I have always thought the Bring your own cable approach was an interesting one. Of course it is slightly less convenient -- and apparently has an issue with cable theft from the driver -- but it does solve the problem on not needing to have a standard since every cable is an adapter. But Europe settled on type 2 as a standard pretty quickly. Of course cable-on-EVSE can have a different cable theft problem (though you must cut it and people will be scared of voltage even if it's not there.) But again, there are far more cars than public chargers.

In the alternate reality Tesla would have said, "You can use your connector, no restrictions" and ideally everybody would have done it (though of course they would have tried to cling to the other standards because they are "standards" so that must be good, right?) Tesla would not have let others charge at superchargers and they might have made a special Tesla-only TWC for use in destination chargers, but over time they would have switched and let others charge at those stations.

 

[FalconFour]

I'm only going by what Tesla says, and I would think they would know best:

View attachment 782734

oh my god now that's just aggressive hostility on Tesla's part.

I didn't know, and wouldn't believe if told without a photo, that Tesla would put such insanely overreactive wording in the car. A bit disturbing. (in the direction that it makes me think less of Tesla - not that the risk is different. I'm speaking from electrical principles and how-the-things-work, but they seem to be speaking from "put the scariest label possible on it to dissuade people from using this adapter" sense).

If Tesla doesn't want people using Setec's adapter, RELEASE THE DAMN CCS1 ADAPTER ALREADY. We know it exists, and we know it works. And now they know there's a market for it, and people are willing to go far out of their way to get them. None of which would be necessary if Tesla's adapter - which already exists - was on the market.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Jesus, now we're elevating this madness to "an arc flash risk"? Do y'all even know what an arc flash IS?

View attachment 782730
View attachment 782731
View attachment 782732

Let's try to stop using terms that elicit emotional reactions that are far greater than the actual risk in question. None of this is possible with CCS. The potential for an arc, sure - and the potential for damage, sure. But NONE of that is "arc flash" - a very dangerous thing that becomes a possibility in the thousands of volts and amps.

But these risks are VERY LOW with any plug that doesn't have a mechanical "latch locker". Why? Because the proximity signal tells both the car and the EVSE that you're pressing the latch, which instantly drops the current to zero. You can't pull the plug out without pushing that button. Like, physically... you can't. Doesn't matter if the latch lock is present or not. The only way you're unplugging that cable is by pressing the button first... and the button makes the car and EVSE stop everything, instantly.

Except in the case of Setec, which is apparently a piece of crap that ignores the prox pin, and relies on the EVSE to notice that its button is being pressed. That's a sin, but even then... you're limited to 50kW, 150a or so. You ain't getting an "arc flash" out of it.

Stop with the hellfire preaching!

Arc flash may not necessarily be of the severity you post. An "Arc blast" would.
An example given of an arc flash in the wiki article is when an incandescent light bulb burns out:
"One of the most common examples of an arc flash occurs when an incandescent light bulb burns out. When the filament breaks, an arc is sustained across the filament, enveloping it in plasma with a bright, blue flash."
Example of what it looks like:

Arc flash - Wikipedia

Basically it's the light and heat that's generated when there is an arc.

 

[henderrj]

Actually, if not for egos, it seems pretty clear that the ideal universal standard would be the Tesla connector. It is the most common connector on cars in the USA and several other countries. It would be in Europe if laws had not pushed it away. China is its own thing.

The Tesla connector is superior in just about every way, though recently CCS has provided slightly higher wattage. But it's more compact, does all levels of charging and does high power too and is very easy to use. Well, I don't need to convince people at TMC about this.

The one thing I would improve is I would try to find a way to put in on the front or back of cars. Why? If it were there, a Tesla could plug itself in to a plug mounted on a fixed pole at the right height, with some slight spring to deal with the angle of insertion. Teslas could drive themselves in and out of supercharger spots and other charging stations. The best charging is where you literally don't have to do anything, your car is just always magically full unless you drive more than 250 miles in one day.

I tried to contact Tesla through various people, even met a few Tesla employees to help, but never got anywhere. Our patent on the power docking port system is designed to do exactly that. True, it really works most favorably with eVTOLS as it aligns rotationally as well as in angles and off center situations. But, never got anywhere trying to convince tesla. I think they'll eventually do something similar to the Tesla snake that was shown some years ago. But yes, being able to not get out of your car at all would be awfully nice at some of these supercharger locations in the middle of the night!

 

[bradtem]

I tried to contact Tesla through various people, even met a few Tesla employees to help, but never got anywhere. Our patent on the power docking port system is designed to do exactly that. True, it really works most favorably with eVTOLS as it aligns rotationally as well as in angles and off center situations. But, never got anywhere trying to convince tesla. I think they'll eventually do something similar to the Tesla snake that was shown some years ago. But yes, being able to not get out of your car at all would be awfully nice at some of these supercharger locations in the middle of the night!

Actually, I want it so I can get out of my car! The short term goal is that if the supercharger is full, my car can wait in a nearby spot, and when it is assigned a spot after somebody leaves, the car will park in the spot and plug in. And when it is full, unplug and park itself. Now we can do this without robotic plug-in and should, because there is always a tesla driver coming in our out who would, if asked (or required) do plugging and unplugging.

But where it gets really interesting is when my car can be sitting where I parked it, and knows I am gone for a while, so it drives off to a charging station, plugs itself in and comes back to me. A lot easier than driving passengers around. Especially if you only need to go short distances on empty roads at night, or just move in motel or employee parking lots.

You could build a robotic snake plug, but the car is already a robot. If you design the plug the right way you don't need any more robotics.

 

[Mockingbird]

If only they could use the Electrify America charging station nearby, LOL

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=375794927462468

 

[jsight]

If only they could use the Electrify America charging station nearby, LOL

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=375794927462468

I just glanced at the ea app and that was showing one of four stalls available. That really wouldn't help much.