CCS Adapter for North America

[MontyFloyd]

Damn. I am reluctant to accept this, but I think that you unfortunately are correct. I just wish that what will apparently become the standard - CCS - were less clunky and more robustly designed. But it seems likely that CCS, with its flaws, will indeed take over for now (though in the long run, I imagine that it too will be replaced by some new, improved general standard, which will lead to further transition issues).

He is potentially wrong, to many assumptions.

1. Standards change (look at USB, Wi-Fi, and cell networks)
2. There is at least 4 different world standards for EV connectors now (but gasoline is largely the same), likely be a single worldwide standard.
3. Tesla may open its plug (why don't they, anyone?)

 

[SageBrush]

To be a standard, there has to be a regulatory body that maintains the standard.

CCS has CharIN.

CHAdeMO has the CHAdeMO Association.

The Tesla connector is entirely controlled by Tesla and there is no regulatory body that maintains it.

Don't look know, but the only body that makes changes to CHAdeMO is NIssan. I don't know about CCS1 or CCS2

 

[damonbrodie]

He is potentially wrong, to many assumptions.

1. Standards change (look at USB, Wi-Fi, and cell networks)
2. There is at least 4 different world standards for EV connectors now (but gasoline is largely the same), likely be a single worldwide standard.
3. Tesla may open its plug (why don't they, anyone?)

Standards do change. Standards bodies made up of representatives from all of the organizations come together and debate the changes. But I don't think you meant that. I think you meant that the new "standard" would somehow magically become the TPC. Under what circumstances do you envision each of the other EV manufacturers that sell in NA to switch away from the CCS connector format and switch to TPC?

 

[STS-134]

Others have pointed out that the ship has sailed for passenger cars in the US. Tesla trying to push this alone would be going against the tide and making it more difficult for owners (which may ending up needing even more adapters between the three standards). The US is even worse than Taiwan in Type 2 adoption, while in Taiwan there are a few passenger EVs that use CCS2, there are literally none in the US.

Personally I think Tesla is better off just sticking with its proprietary connector, so long as they aren't going to put a 3 phase OBC into their vehicles in NA. Then they can create adapters for whatever the current standard is, and replace hardware behind the charging port as necessary to update the signaling protocols. I rather like the Tesla connector, since it's by far the most elegant, least bulky, and best looking connector of all of them, and as long as you aren't doing 3 phase AC charging, it has all of the features of every other connector. It's everyone who's doing non Tesla adapters that needs to change over to CCS2, and then Tesla can simply start selling the CCS2 to Tesla adapter in NA in addition to the CCS1 to Tesla adapter.

Regardless of what happens though, I keep coming back to this thread because I want to know when that CCS1 adapter goes on sale here, because I'll pounce on it. After Tesla superchargers, CCS1 is currently the most abundant DC fast charging connector in NA, and I can see it being useful on roadtrips.

 

[MontyFloyd]

Standards do change. Standards bodies made up of representatives from all of the organizations come together and debate the changes. But I don't think you meant that. I think you meant that the new "standard" would somehow magically become the TPC. Under what circumstances do you envision each of the other EV manufacturers that sell in NA to switch away from the CCS connector format and switch to TPC?

Did not say that.

What could happen Tesla open the TPC for all, and some mfg adopt to that instead of another.

Original USB was Intel's project, they controlled everything about it before opening it up to a standards body (happened a long time ago)

 

[Mockingbird]

Personally I think Tesla is better off just sticking with its proprietary connector, so long as they aren't going to put a 3 phase OBC into their vehicles in NA. Then they can create adapters for whatever the current standard is, and replace hardware behind the charging port as necessary to update the signaling protocols. I rather like the Tesla connector, since it's by far the most elegant, least bulky, and best looking connector of all of them, and as long as you aren't doing 3 phase AC charging, it has all of the features of every other connector. It's everyone who's doing non Tesla adapters that needs to change over to CCS2, and then Tesla can simply start selling the CCS2 to Tesla adapter in NA in addition to the CCS1 to Tesla adapter.

Regardless of what happens though, I keep coming back to this thread because I want to know when that CCS1 adapter goes on sale here, because I'll pounce on it. After Tesla superchargers, CCS1 is currently the most abundant DC fast charging connector in NA, and I can see it being useful on roadtrips.

Tesla is going to ditch the TPC for CCS1 so that it can get a piece of that $7.5 billion pie.

 

[damonbrodie]

Did not say that.

What could happen Tesla open the TPC for all, and some mfg adopt to that instead of another.

Original USB was Intel's project, they controlled everything about it before opening it up to a standards body (happened a long time ago)

Tesla IS opening it to all, they will eventually put a CCS adapter on each super charger.

Let's pick a handful of automotive manufacturers in North America that use CCS:

1. Nissan (with their cars going forward)
2. Kia
3. Hyundai
4. Chevrolet
5. BMW
6. Polestar
7. Volvo
8. Ford
9. Mini
10. Audi
11. Porsche
12. VW
13. Rivian
14. Lucid
15. Mazda

All of these are currently shipping, or have announced, EVs (in the next year or two) that will be equipped with CCS. You think one of these would leave the standards body driven charging standard that delivers the same functionality that they would get with the Tesla connector? What would be their rationale for that? Why would hand control of their EVs charging future over to Tesla to control?

You keep saying maybe, and could and possibly happen, but name a business reason for why it would make sense for this to happen for a car they will release in 2+ years from now?

It might have made sense to make that decision before EA and other DCFC came along (i.e. several years ago), but you are dreaming if you think it will happen now.

Its going to go the other way. Tesla will switch to CCS, and either turn Super Charging into a profit center or they will slow/stop their deployment of new SCs once the CCS infrastructure becomes as reliable as their own.

 

[stopcrazypp]

...and Tesla hasn't updated it ever since

The CHAdeMO adapter was out-of-stock 99.99%.

Even if someone bought it, they are still limited to 50 kW.

That gives a lopsided advantage to the Supercharger, which tops out at 250 kW.

CHAdeMO didn't update the spec to beyond that until 2017 with version 1.1 and few cars had higher power than that, so charge networks didn't bother. This was discussed up thread and part of the reason why it failed.

Tesla wants part of that $7.5 billion pie and it requires CCS.

This was pointed out up thread, but they can satisfy the requirements with extra CCS stalls (as they have done in some places), or dual head superchargers, there is no need for an adapter.

It would look really bad to regulators if Tesla forces Tesla users to only charge at the Supercharger.

With the CHAdeMO adapter, Tesla can deny that it's a walled garden.

The regulators didn't care what the automakers used, that's why we had the whole mess with CHAdeMO vs CCS. There is nothing wrong regulatorily with having a walled garden, especially for a private charge network. They might care for projects made with government funds, but Tesla didn't have those back then (only very recently) and again those can be satisfied with adding stalls with standard connectors, no need for an adapter at all.

In reality, the adapter was out-of-stock 99.99% of the time and limited to 50 kW, which gives a lopsided advantage to the Supercharger.

In addition, there is the cost of the adapter itself, which again, tilted the field in favor of the Supercharger.

Expecting an adapter to be as good as a native port is not realistic. And as pointed out above, the 125A (50 kW with the voltages in Teslas) limit was built into CHAdeMO up until 2017 (when they introduced 400A, 200 kW) and most CHAdeMO stations still fall under that 50 kW limit. It's more of a fault of the standard and how it developed (CCS already had 350kW chargers installed privately by Efacec in 2016, and public ones by 2017).

As for it being out of stock, that's par for the course for most Tesla store items. I was shopping for the NEMA adapters previously and they were frequently coming in and out of stock.

 

[kayak1]

Personally I think Tesla is better off just sticking with its proprietary connector, so long as they aren't going to put a 3 phase OBC into their vehicles in NA. Then they can create adapters for whatever the current standard is, and replace hardware behind the charging port as necessary to update the signaling protocols. I rather like the Tesla connector, since it's by far the most elegant, least bulky, and best looking connector of all of them, and as long as you aren't doing 3 phase AC charging, it has all of the features of every other connector. It's everyone who's doing non Tesla adapters that needs to change over to CCS2, and then Tesla can simply start selling the CCS2 to Tesla adapter in NA in addition to the CCS1 to Tesla adapter.

Regardless of what happens though, I keep coming back to this thread because I want to know when that CCS1 adapter goes on sale here, because I'll pounce on it. After Tesla superchargers, CCS1 is currently the most abundant DC fast charging connector in NA, and I can see it being useful on roadtrips.

I really like the current Tesla connector. That said it's not well suited for 3 phase power. Look at the Renault Zoe it can A/C charge at 22kw. It uses the motor inverter as the onboard charger thus has less to carry around in the car. The best part is no part, hopefully, Tesla will take notice.

Apartments and business could use a standard that support 3 phase charging. Our houses don't have 3 phase power at least as of now. The UK has been starting to transition from single phase to 3 phase for detached houses. I know that my woodshop would love 3 phase power.

It's a shame that CCS1 wasn't as well thought out as CCS2 it would be an upgrade. Moving from Tesla to CCS1 is a downgrade.

As for the Tesla connector being limited to 250kw, it looks like the V3 supper chargers are going to 300kw or 324kw:

Tesla to upgrade V3 Supercharger network to 300kW

Elon Musk reveals that Tesla's Supercharger V3 network will be increased to 300kW as Tesla models top 1,600km EV range test.

thedriven.io

Report: Tesla V3 Supercharger Output To Be Increased To 324 kW

A new power-up for Tesla Supercharging in North America is coming soon, according to the latest rumors.

insideevs.com

In time we will see how far the speeds are pushed.

 

[rhuber]

This is an underappreciated reply.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1487041234954854402

 

[MP3Mike]

This is an underappreciated reply.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1487041234954854402

Of course it could be a very long time before they would need to ask the question again... (In fact it may never happen that CCS outnumbers Superchargers by 10x.)

 

[Mockingbird]

CHAdeMO didn't update the spec to beyond that until 2017 with version 1.1 and few cars had higher power than that, so charge networks didn't bother. This was discussed up thread and part of the reason why it failed.

This is not true at all.

Networks other than Electrify America/Electrify Canada have CHAdeMO that are >50 kW in the US.

For example, EVgo has 100 kW CHAdeMO.

This was pointed out up thread, but they can satisfy the requirements with extra CCS stalls (as they have done in some places), or dual head superchargers, there is no need for an adapter.

If CCS vehicles can charge anywhere while Tesla vehicles can't, that put Tesla vehicles at a disadvantage. Tesla certainly wouldn't want that.

The regulators didn't care what the automakers used, that's why we had the whole mess with CHAdeMO vs CCS. There is nothing wrong regulatorily with having a walled garden, especially for a private charge network. They might care for projects made with government funds, but Tesla didn't have those back then (only very recently) and again those can be satisfied with adding stalls with standard connectors, no need for an adapter at all.

There are antitrust laws, although regulators have done a terrible job of enforcing them.

Expecting an adapter to be as good as a native port is not realistic. And as pointed out above, the 125A (50 kW with the voltages in Teslas) limit was built into CHAdeMO up until 2017 (when they introduced 400A, 200 kW) and most CHAdeMO stations still fall under that 50 kW limit. It's more of a fault of the standard and how it developed (CCS already had 350kW chargers installed privately by Efacec in 2016, and public ones by 2017).

...and hence why Tesla should be putting CCS1 on its vehicles

As for it being out of stock, that's par for the course for most Tesla store items. I was shopping for the NEMA adapters previously and they were frequently coming in and out of stock.

It doesn't help your argument.

 

[kilpatds]

Tesla IS opening it to all, they will eventually put a CCS adapter on each super charger.

That may be a good long term prediction, I can't tell ... but...

The comments I've seen so far where Tesla is going to install CCS plugs to qualify for incentives ... so far all seem to be consistent with Tesla installing ONE 3rd party brand charger at an otherwise normal supercharger install. I seem to recall hearing that that's what Tesla did in one case in Canada.

So I've seen nothing that tells me that we'll see CCS plugs in supercharger installs in the near future.

 

[MP3Mike]

so far all seem to be consistent with Tesla installing ONE 3rd party brand charger at an otherwise normal supercharger install. I seem to recall hearing that that's what Tesla did in one case in Canada.

Actually I think in Canada they installed two dual port (CHAdeMO/CCS) stalls in the subsidized sites in Canada. (Or maybe it was one per 4 Supercharger stalls.)

So I've seen nothing that tells me that we'll see CCS plugs in supercharger installs in the near future.

You mean other than Elon saying that they would open the Superchargers to others, either by having an adapter or adding a second cable? And they already have at least 10 sites in Europe where they have opened the network to see how it works out. (Of course they already had the correct CCS2 connector for use there.)

 

[Mockingbird]

Of course it could be a very long time before they would need to ask the question again... (In fact it may never happen that CCS outnumbers Superchargers by 10x.)

$7.5 billion in government subsidies is a lot of money.

For comparison, Electrify America has a $2 billion budget and has only spent half of it.

 

[Mockingbird]

That may be a good long term prediction, I can't tell ... but...

The comments I've seen so far where Tesla is going to install CCS plugs to qualify for incentives ... so far all seem to be consistent with Tesla installing ONE 3rd party brand charger at an otherwise normal supercharger install. I seem to recall hearing that that's what Tesla did in one case in Canada.

So I've seen nothing that tells me that we'll see CCS plugs in supercharger installs in the near future.

The requirement for that grant was that 20% needs to be non-proprietary.

That grant was absolutely rediculous because Tesla was allowed to use 80% of the government's money to install chargers that non-Tesla can't use.

...and of cause, the non-Tesla chargers are 50 kW while the Superchargers are 250 kW.

 

[rhuber]

Of course it could be a very long time before they would need to ask the question again... (In fact it may never happen that CCS outnumbers Superchargers by 10x.)

I'm just razzing you here, but I do think if CCS hasn't overtaken Supercharging within two years, something has gone horribly wrong with EVs, in general.

 

[MontyFloyd]

All of these are currently shipping, or have announced, EVs (in the next year or two) that will be equipped with CCS. You think one of these would leave the standards body driven charging standard that delivers the same functionality that they would get with the Tesla connector?

You think it is impossible for this to happen?

What would be their rationale for that?

Reliability and ease of use.
No secret that non-Tesla chargers are notorious for not working.

Why would (they?) hand control of their EVs charging future over to Tesla to control?

I don't know, maybe causes the customer would feel confident the charging stations would in operation?

You keep saying maybe, and could and possibly happen, but name a business reason for why it would make sense for this to happen for a car they will release in 2+ years from now?

Never said maybe, just possibility.
There will be a point it will not, but right now all cards are on table.

I will agree simply having the most dominant EV brand and most reliable system is no guarantee it will gain popularity, but I am not betting TCP will become the standard.
I also will not bet CCS will be as well as something else will could still replace it.

Perhaps you said, in a couple of years will know, and I agree.

 

[kilpatds]

You mean other than Elon saying that they would open the Superchargers to others, either by having an adapter or adding a second cable? And they already have at least 10 sites in Europe where they have opened the network to see how it works out. (Of course they already had the correct CCS2 connector for use there.)

Where he didn't say "In the US", and DID open it up to others ... only in places where they didn't need an adapter or 2nd cable.

 

[rhuber]

Reliability and ease of use.
No secret that non-Tesla chargers are notorious for not working.

myth

edit: and i'm not saying they are perfect, but the FUD around non-Tesla charging is ridiculous.