Chargepoint Express Plus: First true Tesla Supercharger competitor 400KW

[Jeff N]

No car can handle 400kW... nor is one planned, that I'm aware of. Trucks, buses, ferry boats, sure, over 1MW. But not cars.

The fastest that ANY current production car will charge on this ChargePoint unit is 120kW... with a Tesla. The same speed as a Tesla at a Supercharger.

The fastest charging proposed production car would be the Porsche MissionE, which would be nearly the same 350-400 amps that a Tesla can accept today (Tesla is 330-365 amps max), but at double the voltage. That means realistically it might actually charge at 250kW, and maybe as high as 300kW (400a * 750v), however I find both those figures very unlikely. I guess we will see in a year or three.

Even the recent startup EV reveals that were all about pushing the specification boundaries are claiming nowhere close to 350 kW. As you implicitly point out, Elon's recent mention of 350kW or faster for Supercharger V3 could be related to their future EV truck products.

Faraday Future just claimed 200 kW. The battery director at Lucid Motors told me at their own recent event that he thought 170 kW was the fastest near term rate (also assuming 130 kWh packs) that was consistent with good battery cycling life. Both are using LG Chem cells but are claiming independent cell design customization, I think. If you just scale up Tesla's existing 90-100 kWh pack size to 130 kWh you could get numbers similar to a 160 kW rate.

It will be interesting to see how Porsche plans to presumably do better than that without seriously sacrificing energy density using different cell design or chemistry given what is publically known to be on the battery tech radar for the next 5 years.

 

[jbcarioca]

Even the recent startup EVs that were all about pushing the specification boundaries are claiming nowhere close to 350 kW. As you implicitly point out, Elon's recent mention of 350kW or faster for Supercharger V3 could be related to their future EV truck products.

Faraday Future just claimed 200 kW. The battery director at Lucid Motors told me at their own recent event that he thought 170 kW was the fastest near term rate (also assuming 130 kWh packs) that was consistent with good battery cycling life. Both are using LG Chem cells but claiming independent cell design customization, I think. If you just scale up Tesla's existing 90-100 kWh pack size to 130 kWh you could get numbers similar to a 160 kW rate.

It will be interesting to see how Porsche plans to presumably do better than that without seriously sacrificing energy density using different cell design or chemistry given what is publically known to be on the battery tech radar for the next 5 years.

Tesla has sevdral aptents that could be relevant. Here are two:
Tesla Patents 400-Mile Hybrid Battery Pack - Gas 2
Patent US20130057209 - Multiport Vehicle DC Charging System with Variable Power Distribution
Then there are all the variants on superconductors that could theoretically resolve the energy density problems.
This thread hs the odd problem of being focussed on the present state of practice. The future will not be the same...

 

[Jeff N]

Tesla has several patents that could be relevant. Here are two:
Tesla Patents 400-Mile Hybrid Battery Pack - Gas 2

This wouldn't increase the speed of recharging. If anything, it would likely slow full recharging because my impression is that Lithium Air is great for energy density but not so great on power density (which is why they hybridized by making part of the battery from today's cells that have better power density).

Patent US20130057209 - Multiport Vehicle DC Charging System with Variable Power Distribution

This is the patent covering the design of the existing Superchargers that use 2 stalls per charger, I think. Are you suggesting that Supercharger V3 could just allow more stalls per charger but wouldn't necessarily charge individual cars faster than today?

 

[MP3Mike]

Faraday Future just claimed 200 kW. The battery director at Lucid Motors told me at their own recent event that he thought 170 kW was the fastest near term rate (also assuming 130 kWh packs) that was consistent with good battery cycling life. Both are using LG Chem cells but are claiming independent cell design customization, I think. If you just scale up Tesla's existing 90-100 kWh pack size to 130 kWh you could get numbers similar to a 160 kW rate.

@Jeff N I thought Lucid was using Samsung SDI cells: Lucid and Samsung SDI Strategic Partnership

 

[Jeff N]

@Jeff N I thought Lucid was using Samsung SDI cells: Lucid and Samsung SDI Strategic Partnership

They have announced deals with both Samsung and LG. I guess for redundant supply channels?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can you disagree with any of that?

If you've been around electric cars or batteries for any time at all, you've seen that the Internet has lots of jibber jabber about super fantastic batteries, described with breathless enthusiasm. They are "just around the corner".

Batteries are improving; that is a fact. Elon Musk probably said it best; if you have that better battery, then present it for testing. The reality is that automotive grade batteries are improving at a consistent 5 to 10% rate every year, and I expect that to continue for some time.

There are more issues to consider than just "how fast does it charge" for an automotive battery.

I'll leave the pie-in-the-sky for speculation and Internet banter, but I work in the real world. The future does look bright.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Source? If true it seems pretty stupid on Tesla's part.

@tommolog

 

[JoRey]

For future reference, here is a link for the specs. It seems the charger was designed for up to three cables. " ChargePoint Express Plus stations will offer CCS and CHAdeMO charging, but can support up to three connectors, leaving the possibility open for a third “standard” to be added."

ChargePoint Express Plus Debuts: Offers Industry High 400 kW DC Fast Charging

 

[JoRey]

 

[Galve2000]

god if only chargepoint wasn't such a rip off... i'd be excited.

Edit: then again, we have yet to see what Tesla will charge new owners after their free 400 kWh allotment -- which BTW i find to be not very much at all.

 

[TonyWilliams]

god if only chargepoint wasn't such a rip off... i'd be excited.

Edit: then again, we have yet to see what Tesla will charge new owners after their free 400 kWh allotment -- which BTW i find to be not very much at all.

All the ChargePoint DC chargers are owned by other parties (usually, there may be some exception somewhere). The owner sets the price, just like independently owned franchise gasoline stations. So, it wouldn't be accurate to say "ChargePoint" was a "rip off", when one site might be FREE and another might charge a whole bunch of money.

Note: I am a part owner of the very first DC charger on the ChargePoint network.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Even the recent startup EV reveals that were all about pushing the specification boundaries are claiming nowhere close to 350 kW. As you implicitly point out, Elon's recent mention of 350kW or faster for Supercharger V3 could be related to their future EV truck products.

Faraday Future just claimed 200 kW. The battery director at Lucid Motors told me at their own recent event that he thought 170 kW was the fastest near term rate (also assuming 130 kWh packs)...

It will be interesting to see how Porsche plans to presumably do better than that without seriously sacrificing energy density using different cell design or chemistry given what is publically known to be on the battery tech radar for the next 5 years.

Now I have learned that Porsche only intends to operate at 220 kW.
I also suspect that Porsche will maintain the car at 400 volts for most configurations and only use an 800 volt configuration for DC fast charging with these rare chargers that operate between 501-1000 volts.

With the revelation that their "350kW" car will really be 220kW at 800 volt maximum, we have to assume that the max charge rate is around 700 volts. NO BATTERY ACCEPTS MAXIMUM AMPS AT ITS MAXIMUM VOLTS !!! (Sorry, I have to keep saying that):

220kW = 350a * 629v (350 amps is very likely to be the max amps)
220kW = 312A * 700v (probably)
220kW = 293a * 750v (maybe????)
0kW === 0a * 800v

So, when the Porsche is plugged into the lowly "150kW" charger:

110kW = 350a * 315v (about the same as a 70-75 Tesla at 365a)
110kW = 312A * 350v (probably)
110kW = 293a * 375v (maybe????)
0kW === 0a * 800v

And when a Porsche owner is really slumming it at a "50kW" charger, well, it's the same as a LEAF, or BMW i3, or Tesla with a CHAdeMO adaptor.

 

[smartypnz]

Can't really say 'just released' if it won't be available till mid year.

 

[Jeff N]

Now I have learned that Porsche only intends to operate at 220 kW.
I also suspect that Porsche will maintain the car at 400 volts for most configurations and only use an 800 volt configuration for DC fast charging with these rare chargers that operate between 501-1000 volts.

Not surprising. Pretty much all EVs have average pack voltages in the 350-400V range and the obvious thing for Porsche to do was double that typical configuration in their high voltage configuration.

Your calculations all assume a peak current of 350A but we know the ChargePoint has announced new products that support up to 400A. Apparently there is a pending standards vote to increase the peak current to that level.

Every new generation ChargePoint DC station will support up to 1000V even in lower-cost configurations and larger station configurations can dynamically support 220 kW charging or more when some stalls are empty.

Porsche is part of the VW Group and VW will be spending Tesla-style on DC highway corridor charging in the US under their dieselgate EPA/CARB settlement. These kinds of stations and configurations may become quite common among major highways in the next several years.

 

[miimura]

We can only hope that VW will install charging stations that match the specs and flexibility of the ChargePoint Express Plus family.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Your calculations all assume a peak current of 350A but we know the ChargePoint has announced new products that support up to 400A. Apparently there is a pending standards vote to increase the peak current to that level.

That 400 amp plug is with a liquid cooled plug made by one company with an exclusive agreement with ChargePoint. We don't know how prevalent 400 amps will be. We do know that 350 amps is "standard" for both CHAdeMO and CCS.

We also know that Tesla already operates at 365 amps today. Tesla uses an SIGNIFICANTLY different pin concept to to,safely transfer power at high amps.

Porsche is part of the VW Group and VW will be spending Tesla-style on DC highway corridor charging in the US under their dieselgate EPA/CARB settlement. These kinds of stations and configurations may become quite common among major highways in the next several years.

Yes, they'll be doing that until Trump and his cronies kill the EPA, or just neuter it enough to make all the penalties to VW become moot.

 

[Galve2000]

The owner sets the price, just like independently owned franchise gasoline stations.

So owners miraculously all choose to charge $0.49/kWh for level 2 charging? how did they all magically arrive at this number?

I am not an owner of a chargepoint station but from my researched I have learned that most businesses and garages are given the following pitch:

1. chargepoint will pay for the installation of the stations at the location
2. chargepoint will maintain said stations
3. property Owners must "set" the cost to charge at $0.49/kWh if they want the above deal.

most property owners don't care, so they just agree and rip off BEV owners who use these stations.

 

[MP3Mike]

I am not an owner of a chargepoint station but from my researched I have learned that most businesses and garages are given the following pitch:

1. chargepoint will pay for the installation of the stations at the location
2. chargepoint will maintain said stations
3. property Owners must "set" the cost to charge at $0.49/kWh if they want the above deal.

most property owners don't care, so they just agree and rip off BEV owners who use these stations.

I'm not sure you can unilaterally say that they are ripping off customers. How much does the electricity cost them? $0.20/kWh? That leaves $0.29/kWh to cover the cost of the equipment, install, maintenance, credit card fees, etc. If you figure that the install costs $50,000 that means it would take ~4,300 40kWh charges just to get to the break even point. How many people charge a day per station? If it only averages 5 charges/day that means it is ~2.5 years before they start to make a penny. (Not including any other costs: network charges, maintenance, repairs, credit card fees, upgrades, financing costs, customer service, etc.)

I don't know how reasonable my guesses are in terms of cost, average charge kWhs, or charges per day. But can you show that ChargePoint is making a killing?

 

[TonyWilliams]

So owners miraculously all choose to charge $0.49/kWh for level 2 charging?
...most property owners don't care, so they just agree and rip off BEV owners who use these stations.

If you feel you're being "ripped off", please don't use these services.

By the way, it's actually illegal to sell electricity by the kWh in some states.

 

[Galve2000]

I don't know how reasonable my guesses are in terms of cost, average charge kWhs, or charges per day. But can you show that ChargePoint is making a killing?

They would be making more money if they dropped their rates to something more reasonable, even if it is considerably more expensive than what we pay at home.

I have said many times that at home I pay $0.17/kWh and would pay double that for the convenience and the availability of a charging spot.

As much as I'd like to, I can't very well drop an extension cord from the 32nd floor of my apartment building to the street. so I have no choice but to use a public charger. but i draw the line at $0.35/kWh -- I estimate that at roughly $0.25/kWh, gas becomes the cheaper option (even in NYC where gas is PRICEY) but i would pay more b/c it is a privilege to drive electric. but $0.49/kWh? they are shooting themselves in the foot.

I maintain that they would get more use out of the chargers if their rates were more reasonable.

How much does the electricity cost them? $0.20/kWh?

This is a fair point. although it is not so simple. the actual per kWh rate in most commercial buildings in NYC is closer to $0.05/kWh -- where things get screwed up, is the "demand" charges. commercial spaces are known for using a lot more power than residential spaces, so they get a better rate per kWh, but then they get slammed with demand charges, which is a fee for having a ton of power readily available at any given time.

That said, most NYC garages are not running tons of power tools all day long -- unless you count that aging, dusty Pentium 2 machine the attendants use to play minesweeper on during their downtime -- so again, i maintain that my $0.17/kWh rate that I would pay if I could charge at home is MORE than whatever the commercial garage in my building and in the buildings around me pay for power.

$0.49/kWh is price gouging.