Cheated

[xkwizit]

I've been reading through this thread & have a couple of thoughts.

Some of you were unaware that AP2 was going to be rolled out by stages and didn't know that there were target dates along with a disclaimer of 'subject to regulatory approval'. I know I saw it on the website and thought it was very clear, but obviously it could have been a 'click to acknowledge' during the purchase agreement, so there would be absolutely no confusion.

Some like to claim it's just how Tesla does business, citing some examples. But as always, I'm a little surprised at the examples that were left out (probably because it doesn't support the 'how Tesla does business' argument). Early Model S owners only knew their cars would be capable of high-power charging. NO ONE suspected the supercharger network was going to be rolled out and free long-distance charging would be offered. No Signatures and earl production models were sold believing that to be true. So ... bonus. We knew early on that there would be a monthly charge for data ... nope, didn't happen. AP1 hardware showed up on cars before the announcement, a huge bonus for those people. So let's temper the 'how Tesla does business' with the positive examples, too. And all of you have examples of being delighted (and some disappointed) at the OTA updates that allow you to wake up to a car with new features.

Let's say Tesla didn't have anything about AP2 out on their website. You could only buy AP1. How would you feel to find out later that the people who didn't select AP1 received the AP2 wiring harness / hardware and could upgrade to it later? Cheated? I sure would.

So for me, it really comes down to they should have tried a little harder to make sure people fully understood that AP2 was rolling out in stages, that regulatory approval could also throw a wrench into the works, and no definitive promises were being made re timeline. I suspect every single person would have opted for it anyway. And if you wouldn't, speak up. There are more than a few people willing to trade their brand-new and fully functional AP1 for your AP2. (And willing to pay the difference between AP1 & AP2.)

I knew the rollout dates were all iffy, don't find anythng about the rollout surprising, and I ordered AP2 anyway. I want the latest.

Well said @bonnie - and good to see your post again.

To the ones that feel cheated..I bought my AP1 car that on the website said it will park itself or come to pick me up from the parking lot. Of course that was reaallly far stretched especially with AP1 hardware.

But do I feel cheated? Maybe a little. Am I enjoying my car? Damn best car I have owned. Has it saved my life? Damn yeah many occasions.

Point is Tesla ownership is different from any other car. Elon and his team have changed the game for the auto industry. And we are all a part of this. I can now really hope that by the time I have grandkids, an autonomous vehicle will come pick me up and I will not be one of those crazy grandpas on the road.

 

[Reeler]

Fanboys/girls can give Tesla a pass on their promises, but others who feel cheated have a legitimate beef. I think they should have stuck with AP 1.0 sensors until they had AP 2.0 working at the same level at least.

Promising L5 autonomy and taking $5k for that right now I think goes too far as in my opinion, they cannot deliver on that promise with the AP 2.0 sensor suite and if they could, regulators would never approve such a sensor-light implementation.

Silicon snake oil at its worst.

 

[bonnie]

Fanboys/girls can give Tesla a pass on their promises, but others who feel cheated have a legitimate beef. I think they should have stuck with AP 1.0 sensors until they had AP 2.0 working at the same level at least.

Promising L5 autonomy and taking $5k for that right now I think goes too far as in my opinion, they cannot deliver on that promise with the AP 2.0 sensor suite and if they could, regulators would never approve such a sensor-light implementation.

Silicon snake oil at its worst.

I assume you're including me in that 'fanboy/fangirl'. I'm always amused by those who are willing to just dismiss a contrarian opinion by blaming it on fanboyism. It stinks of 'if you don't agree with me, you're stupid'.

I have 6+ years of experience with Tesla and am not blind. If you bothered to read my post, I agreed the rollout should be more clear.

I'm not hypocritical. I'm stating what I believe to be true, based on a history with the company. When I get referrals from people, they get an honest opinion from me. I notice you're very negative on Tesla with most of your posts - yet actively pursue getting referrals. What do you tell those people? The truth as you seem to believe it? Or whatever it takes to get their referral? I'm honestly curious.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

Don't dissect me for the criticism below - I love Tesla as the next guy, but I'm not a fanboy and think that Tesla clearly need to improve on its communication with customers. I just cant accept the comment below as a viable expectation level.



It kind of was, even now the order page says "Tesla Enhanced Autopilot software is expected to complete validation and be rolled out to your car via on over-the-air update in December 2016, subject to regulatory approval". The widespread notion among fanboys is pointing with all fingers and toes to the word "expected" - well, I think a reasonable interpretation of that statement would be to "expect the autopilot in December to be rolled out to my car". I wouldn't say that this would constitute as a lie because clearly Tesla left itself a way out, but still, it was kind of promised.



This is such a weak argument. A reasonable research would include reading the provided information from the manufacturer - not some user forums which might or might not have a reliable and accurate information. And really, we now need to research and take in consideration historic delays in production and development? Consider this scenario: you and I make a deal, you pay me money, and I dont deliver, or delivery some but not all of the product. Once you ask me where is your product, would you accept my answer if it was :"anyone who did even a minimal amount of research before spending $100,000 would have known that MasterT products (both cars and firmware updates) are always delayed"???



One could definitely hope, but autopilot is ONE of many FEATURES of Model X and it's definitely not a "bonus" - we paid for it, it's a feature of a car - similar to long range, to LED lights, to FWD, etc. It's definitely not a "bonus"

I'm guessing you're a fanboy. You just don't realize it yet.

 

[outie]

Fanboys/girls can give Tesla a pass on their promises, but others who feel cheated have a legitimate beef. I think they should have stuck with AP 1.0 sensors until they had AP 2.0 working at the same level at least.

Promising L5 autonomy and taking $5k for that right now I think goes too far as in my opinion, they cannot deliver on that promise with the AP 2.0 sensor suite and if they could, regulators would never approve such a sensor-light implementation.

Silicon snake oil at its worst.

What? You are saying they are starting from scratch with their AP2 hardware? It can't be... they showed what the AP2 can do in the video driving autonomously so their latest and greatest software has already cracked the hurdles of the new hardware. What? Different branches of software?

 

[Chrisizzle]

Another wrinkle in the entire 'cheated' argument is that AP1 features have been rolled back.

There is an entire thread dedicated to AP1 owners who hate Tesla for withdrawing features that they rolled out too quickly and have had to reign in due to safety.

And then... the other threads telling people who use Autopilot incorrectly that it is clearly stated 'beta' and shouldn't be relied on at all.

So, I am glad I only recently got a car with AP1. Most of the dust has settled and I am happy with wha it does.

 

[outie]

Another wrinkle in the entire 'cheated' argument is that AP1 features have been rolled back.

There is an entire thread dedicated to AP1 owners who hate Tesla for withdrawing features that they rolled out too quickly and have had to reign in due to safety.

And then... the other threads telling people who use Autopilot incorrectly that it is clearly stated 'beta' and shouldn't be relied on at all.

So, I am glad I only recently got a car with AP1. Most of the dust has settled and I am happy with wha it does.

Meanwhile there were people who traded in their functional, days/months old AP1 cars for AP2 cars.

 

[FlatSix911]

Forget about AP2 ... we need Ludicrous+
Tesla to push new ‘Enhanced Autopilot’ update to first 1,000, aims for whole fleet by end of the week, and ‘Ludicrous+’

he said it on twitter

 

[xkwizit]

Fanboys/girls can give Tesla a pass on their promises, but others who feel cheated have a legitimate beef. I think they should have stuck with AP 1.0 sensors until they had AP 2.0 working at the same level at least.

Promising L5 autonomy and taking $5k for that right now I think goes too far as in my opinion, they cannot deliver on that promise with the AP 2.0 sensor suite and if they could, regulators would never approve such a sensor-light implementation.

Silicon snake oil at its worst.

Umm..I agree it's counter intuitive that Tesla had to start from scratch for machine learning data for AP2 hardware. And it would have been really nice to start AP2 at least at the same level as AP1. But did they do this intentionally to cheat customers..definitely not. Elon and Tesla have always been about doing the right thing. I presume there might have been a technical issue or maybe a contract limitation with the hardware manufacturer for AP1 that made Tesla start from scratch.

And going by the experience of turning on the AP1, Tesla couldn't have started at AP1 level without actively collecting live data from the AP2 hardware. Yes, they could have done the implementation differently like instead of charging upfront for AP2, give the option of paying to turn it on maybe in 6months similar to what they did for the EAP features.

But calling it silicon snake oil??? Really?

 

[Reeler]

A snake oil salesman overpromises, underdelivers and scoots out of town before the law catches up with them. Tesla has grandiose promises to pump up sales and stock price, figures out that they cannot deliver, and then removes all mention from their web site. There are many examples of this such as blind spot detection, WiFi hotspot, backseat HVAC control with an app, freeway exit negotiation, but there are many more too.

A fanboi argument is one that says I know what they did may not have been right (although I probably will not admit that), but because I love the company or am worried about the share price as an investor, let me talk you out of a legitimate beef.

I personally refuse to give Tesla a "reality distortion field" and yes I give that advice to anyone who asks. To address Bonnie's ad hominem attack (common to fanbois who want to undermine your point by otherwise attacking you personally). I have talked more folks out of buying a Tesla than I have talked into. If with the full story, they want to buy one it is a great car, but truth will be something they are armed with.

 

[xkwizit]

A snake oil salesman overpromises, underdelivers and scoots out of town before the law catches up with them. Tesla has grandiose promises to pump up sales and stock price, figures out that they cannot deliver, and then removes all mention from their web site. There are many examples of this such as blind spot detection, WiFi hotspot, backseat HVAC control with an app, freeway exit negotiation, but there are many more too.

A fanboi argument is one that says I know what they did may not have been right (although I probably will not admit that), but because I love the company or am worried about the share price as an investor, let me talk you out of a legitimate beef.

I personally refuse to give Tesla a "reality distortion field" and yes I give that advice to anyone who asks. To address Bonnie's ad hominem attack (common to fanbois who want to undermine your point by otherwise attacking you personally). I have talked more folks out of buying a Tesla than I have talked into. If with the full story, they want to buy one it is a great car, but truth will be something they are armed with.

@Reeler - I agree wholeheartedly with giving a balanced view to potential owners but I don't agree with the snake oil salesman analogy ..that's reality distortion in my view. I would explain to potential owners how to level their expectations, what they will get today and how the car improves as they own it (as compared to other cars that become obsolete).

 

[Reeler]

@Reeler - I agree wholeheartedly with giving a balanced view to potential owners but I don't agree with the snake oil salesman analogy ..that's reality distortion in my view. I would explain to potential owners how to level their expectations, what they will get today and how the car improves as they own it (as compared to other cars that become obsolete).

It is fair to say that the car will improve. But it is equally fair to say that Tesla has a pattern of overpromising and underdelivering. As I said above, buyers should buy based on what the car can do today and view promises through the lens of what Tesla has done in the past.

One thing is for sure, your Tesla will have different software over time. Generally, it is an improvement, but it also may remove functionality. A Tesla owner is a beta tester of sorts who does not know what the software will be down the line.

 

[bonnie]

A snake oil salesman overpromises, underdelivers and scoots out of town before the law catches up with them. Tesla has grandiose promises to pump up sales and stock price, figures out that they cannot deliver, and then removes all mention from their web site. There are many examples of this such as blind spot detection, WiFi hotspot, backseat HVAC control with an app, freeway exit negotiation, but there are many more too.

A fanboi argument is one that says I know what they did may not have been right (although I probably will not admit that), but because I love the company or am worried about the share price as an investor, let me talk you out of a legitimate beef.

I personally refuse to give Tesla a "reality distortion field" and yes I give that advice to anyone who asks. To address Bonnie's ad hominem attack (common to fanbois who want to undermine your point by otherwise attacking you personally). I have talked more folks out of buying a Tesla than I have talked into. If with the full story, they want to buy one it is a great car, but truth will be something they are armed with.

Sorry, but I'm laughing. You accuse me of an ad hominen attack, while doing it to me. Again. You dismissed my opinion by labeling me.

Why can't people just have a conversation without resorting to negative labels? I would love it if accusing someone of just being a 'fanboy/fangirl' were recognized as equally polarizing as calling someone a troll. Because it is. When you call someone a troll, you're accusing them of just pot stirring. When you label someone a fanboy or fangirl, you're saying that they're incapable of a balanced response, when the reality is they just disagree with you. It doesn't help conversation and people are well aware of what they are doing. I assumed you were aware of the negative connotations - apologies if you were not.

Peace. Not going to engage further on this.

 

[TexasEV]

Reeler, most owners don't ageee with you. That's why Tesla has the highest satisfaction of any car manufacturer in the recent Consumer Reports survey. We understand that any Tesla you buy is a work in progress. This is different than buying any other car, ever. But you should only buy it if you're happy with the features available at the time you purchase it, then any updates you get are a bonus.

I admit many of us who bought a Tesla because it's an EV do cut the company some slack. That's because we know that if this company doesn't succeed, it's the end of mainstream EVs probably for a generation or more. Legacy auto manufacturers are only talking about developing compelling EVs because of Tesla. If you want to denigrate that with the term "fanboy", so be it, I prefer to think we're looking at the big picture. Those who buy a Tesla because of autopilot promises may not get the whole EV thing.

 

[Reeler]

Sorry, but I'm laughing. You accuse me of an ad hominen attack, while doing it to me. Again. You dismissed my opinion by labeling me.

Sorry, but I was not referring to you with the fanboy/girl comment and you presumed I was so that started the personal attacks. I am now using the term fanboi as I believe that is gender neutral.

My point is that folks defending Tesla in a thread called "Cheated" will be accused of bias if they simply say Tesla is otherwise great so ignore the transgression. There are many taking that position and I believe it demonstrates bias in some way.

 

[Canuck]

@Reeler you hit below the belt. There's no need for personal attacks. It's the lowest form of argument. You only make yourself look foolish. Please keep the name calling and schoolyard arguing out of your posts. You can make good arguments against Tesla's tactics without such childish nonsense. All you have done is lost credibility for your arguments. Your comments are so over the top with "snake oil" (for the best AP out there) - "fanboi" (when people raise reasoned arguments on the other side that you don't agree with but don't challenge intellectually), and so on, that it actually makes me think you are really a Tesla supporter and are just trolling to make one side of this argument look really bad. You certainly do that very well.

 

[xkwizit]

I think basic difference is how Silicon Valley operates vs Detroit. Detroit is risk averse and Silicon Valley doesn't hesitate in experimenting with new technologies. So, obviously with Silicon Valley developed products there's an unknown factor. They are futuristic but maybe buggy. With Detroit products you get what your great grandfather drove just in a new shiny package. So you really don't expect much. And of course you get the bonus haggling at the dealer

 

[Twiglett]

For those who got a 2 year lease and paid for an $8K more expensive lease basis, may only enjoy those features for half of their lease.

I think Tesla should allow buyer to pay to activate those promised, but not delivered features, once they are actually available on the car. Instead, you have to buy them at purchase or pay a penalty to activate them later.

The flipside to that argument is that surely the folks who are paying less by purchasing up front are getting a discount off the future cost by paying for a feature they will get in the future.
If you don't want to invest in the company by prepaying for something why should you expect to get the discount.
Early purchase discounts are hardly unusual.

 

[Chopr147]

Sometimes these threads really go off track I forgot how the original started

As xkwizit, says legacy automakers are risk averse which is one of the reasons (if not primary) they appear so far behind in AP driving. EV? Well that's a different argument. On Tesla's "overpromises" I prefer to call it "premature promises" I believe they will get to where they want to be but Elon likes to Tweet advances prior to realizing them. Many at Tesla probably would like him to ease back on the Twitting? and let them get to work. Sorta like Trump's people
Now I leased an S and received delivery in August. 3 weeks later Elon teased about AP2 coming out any day now Do I feel cheated? No, because I knew it was coming, just figured it wouldn't be until 2017. Oh well, that was the reason I changed my purchase to a lease on the last day. I read TMC, followed Elon and read just about every Tesla news coming out before slapping down any cash. I think the ones feeling cheated did not do their due diligence prior to ordering.

 

[Hans Allis]

So you didn't actually specifically order a AP2 car like OP...

True. I was lucky to get upgraded to HW2.0.