Checked Alignment: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[lolachampcar]

One interesting data point (at least to me)...

During one of my upper link installations we (alignment tech and I) were unable to get one wheel less than 0.2 degrees of toe in. We set the other wheel at 0.2 degrees of toe in (for a total of 0.4) and I reached out to one of the techs at the service center to talk about loosening the sub-frame (actually, to get the bolt torque spec before we loosened it). My car felt much more stable on the highway and lost a bit of range.

Two days later, I had it back on the rack, we loosened the sub-frame bolts to allow it to "pop" back straight, re-torqued the four bolts and set the alignment to roughly 0.05 toe in per side for a total toe in of 0.1 degrees. My range came back as did the propensity of the car to follow pavement grooving on the highway.

WRT the nervous feel under hard acceleration for Ps and S', I went from a P to a P+ and the change in bushings made this issue much better on the P+. I have since ordered P+ lower a-arms for my wife's S85. They are in at the Service Center so I should soon have the chance to test my theory that it is the soft front a-arm bushings that are allowing too much torque loading movement in the rear under hard acceleration. I think those soft bushings are compressing under hard acceleration allowing the wheel to move forward. When that wheel breaks traction it snaps back only to do the cycle all over again. This is only a theory on my part but the a-arms should give me a chance to test the theory on a S.

 

[FlasherZ]

Ok, another update... after I asked yesterday about the toe-out in the rear being at odds with the previously published specs, the service center team started looking a bit closer at the specific numbers used. As it turns out, the programmed data in the Hunter machine for Model S appears to be wrong. They're working with Hunter this morning to get the right data programmed and will be bringing the car back in to realign to specs.

- - - Updated - - -

This is only a theory on my part but the a-arms should give me a chance to test the theory on a S.

Would love to hear the results, I'm sure you're going to share.

 

[lolachampcar]

So the service center did not know that no street car is ever supposed to have toe out in the rear?

What does Scooby say? RutRhoe?

Flasher,
It is not a lot of toe out but you might want to find a large parking lot and put some welly to it with some steering input We used to run toe out in the rear at a few tracks with my Chevy Spice and boy that could be fun on slow corners and "interesting" on the higher speed stuff.

 

[FlasherZ]

So the service center did not know that no street car is ever supposed to have toe out in the rear?

What does Scooby say? RutRhoe?

I think it's a matter of engineering vs. technician - engineers may look at the number and consider the impact. Technicians are leveraging the machines to get them within the specs provided by the engineers - when they're adjusting the rear toe link, they're looking for the box to turn green.

 

[aaron0k]

Quoted from Previous thread:

I have also have a 60 (technically a 40) 2 months, std suspension, same Goodyear's w/4500 miles. Had the same feeling since the day I got it to this day. After reading the forums, I bought my first torque wrench and while my lugs were off a bit, once at spec... it didn't help. It feels fine off the freeway.

I took it to the SC, they re-ran the alignment, checked the wheels, etc and said it's fine and that's the way "it's supposed to be"... and it "must be the roads I travel".

I've taken the same route for 10 years in an Accord and Volt and never felt I was constantly correcting. Not sure if this is how it's "supposed" to be, however my MS definitely doesn't feel like it "floats on rails" like others have claimed. Not sure if it's me not being used to a RWD, the standard suspension or the Goodyears?

Update:
I originally took my MS in at 3k miles in Aug regarding the above. They said they couldn't replicate the issue, they did an alignment anyway; nothing changed. I thought maybe this is just the way a 60 with Std Suspension/Tires handles.

After reading several more posts on this subject, I took it back last week. Wow... what a huge difference. I am ashamed I drove a wobbling beast around on on LA freeways for over 10k miles.

I'm not sure if re-torquing the rear suspension or the re-alignment did the trick, I'm just happy to be 'floating on rails'.

At 10k my tread depths were 6/32 front; 8/32:9/32 rear.

 

[strider]

After reading several more posts on this subject, I took it back last week. Wow... what a huge difference. I am ashamed I drove a wobbling beast around on on LA freeways for over 10k miles.

I'm not sure if re-torquing the rear suspension or the re-alignment did the trick, I'm just happy to be 'floating on rails'.

Wonder why they didn't catch it the first time? Hopefully the noise we've been making has caused information to flow down the the SC's and they know what to look for now.

 

[Brick Pilot]

A Whopper of a Fishtail

Not really, but I thought I'd pass along my story, just in case there are others of you in a similar situation.

A week back, My P85+ with 1800 miles started to fishtail during hard acceleration and deceleration. By "fishtail", I mean that the rear end would sway sideways, and then recover, usually between 40-60 mph. I lived with it, but it was getting progressively worse, and last night it felt as though it was crabbing through turns as well. I love to drive aggressively on the deserted backroads near my home, but now that was getting downright dangerous. I love this car, but it needs to behave!

This morning, I emailed the Service Center in Bellevue WA, and got a response to bring it in as soon as possible.
They fixed it within two hours, and it is back on the road and behaving like it did when I brought her home.

Verbatim, from the Service Report:

Cause:	Found excessive play in left rear toe link mounting
Correction:	Rear Suspension and Hubs General Diagnosis - Found improper loading of left rear fastener for toe link. Pre-loaded suspension and retorqued. Checked torque of other suspension components for rear and verified all properly loaded

They also cleaned and resealed my backup lenses to keep the water out of them (mine were leaky), and they updated my firmware to 5.6.

Overall, it was a great service experience. When I dropped it off they offered a loaner or a shuttle back to my work, and they even offered to deliver it to my workplace when the repairs were completed. They care about us and our cars. That is why I drive Tesla.

 

[FlasherZ]

Wonder why they didn't catch it the first time? Hopefully the noise we've been making has caused information to flow down the the SC's and they know what to look for now.

From what I gather, this particular issue has garnered a lot of attention at corporate and in all the service centers, it was becoming a pretty big issue to solve. My car is back at the service center today, getting re-aligned with the correct numbers programmed into the alignment machine.

 

[aaron0k]

They also cleaned and resealed my backup lenses to keep the water out of them (mine were leaky), and they updated my firmware to 5.6.

Overall, it was a great service experience. When I dropped it off they offered a loaner or a shuttle back to my work, and they even offered to deliver it to my workplace when the repairs were completed. They care about us and our cars. That is why I drive Tesla.

I agree, I had a very similar and positive experience; significantly better service compared to my 1st visit. I sent some feedback to a few of them regarding the noteworthy improvement.

 

[mnx]

Hmmm did your car always fishtail to the same side? My back end will definitely slide out like that at those speeds if I punch it with on roads with less than optimal traction. I figured it was normal but now I'm having doubts...

Not really, but I thought I'd pass along my story, just in case there are others of you in a similar situation.

A week back, My P85+ with 1800 miles started to fishtail during hard acceleration and deceleration. By "fishtail", I mean that the rear end would sway sideways, and then recover, usually between 40-60 mph. I lived with it, but it was getting progressively worse, and last night it felt as though it was crabbing through turns as well. I love to drive aggressively on the deserted backroads near my home, but now that was getting downright dangerous. I love this car, but it needs to behave!

This morning, I emailed the Service Center in Bellevue WA, and got a response to bring it in as soon as possible.
They fixed it within two hours, and it is back on the road and behaving like it did when I brought her home.

Verbatim, from the Service Report:

Cause:	Found excessive play in left rear toe link mounting
Correction:	Rear Suspension and Hubs General Diagnosis - Found improper loading of left rear fastener for toe link. Pre-loaded suspension and retorqued. Checked torque of other suspension components for rear and verified all properly loaded

They also cleaned and resealed my backup lenses to keep the water out of them (mine were leaky), and they updated my firmware to 5.6.

Overall, it was a great service experience. When I dropped it off they offered a loaner or a shuttle back to my work, and they even offered to deliver it to my workplace when the repairs were completed. They care about us and our cars. That is why I drive Tesla.

 

[FlasherZ]

I think we finally have this alignment thing in order now!

I got my car back from the service center and I think we're finally all nailed down. The machine vendor reprogrammed the alignment machine and now everything is in spec. Rear camber was reduced to -1.80 degrees and -1.76 degrees (spec is -1.4 to -2.1 for air cars) and rear toe was set to 0.22 minutes IN per wheel, for a total toe-in of 0.44 minutes (spec is .35' to .45').

The service center worked very hard to get everything perfectly in line once all the specs had been properly programmed. They had some trouble aligning it with the Rial wheels on the car and had to put some factory wheels on to make the machine work properly, but now the thrust angle is perfect, the rear is slightly toe-in. They managed to pull the camber in some more.

...and now we'll watch how the tires wear!

Here are the alignment numbers after all this work:

I'm very happy with how the service center stuck with me through this issue and got everything straightened out!

 

[Dave EV]

I think we finally have this alignment thing in order now!

Yes, that alignment appears to be a thing of beauty, and probably the most consistent numbers anyone has ever posted!

 

[Musterion]

They had some trouble aligning it with the Rial wheels on the car and had to put some factory wheels on to make the machine work properly.

Was this because the Rials don't have a flat face near their outer perimeter?

 

[FlasherZ]

Was this because the Rials don't have a flat face near their outer perimeter?

They didn't say what it was specifically. It looked like they were able to mount the reflectors properly and firmly but I'm guessing there was just something weird about it.

 

[Mayhemm]

I think we finally have this alignment thing in order now!
I'm very happy with how the service center stuck with me through this issue and got everything straightened out!

So does this mean Tesla will roll out this programming to all their service centers? Then we can all benefit from your hard work. :biggrin:

Alignments are part of the annual service now, so maybe this problem will be a thing of the past?

 

[FlasherZ]

So does this mean Tesla will roll out this programming to all their service centers? Then we can all benefit from your hard work. :biggrin:

Alignments are part of the annual service now, so maybe this problem will be a thing of the past?

Well, there seem to be several issues that Tesla is going to be working out...

First, there's the issue of too much camber in certain cars. They've addressed that by releasing a special set of bolts that will help them get the suspension adjusted and some of that extra camber removed.

Then there is the issue of proper specs for the alignment machines. It's unclear whether the incorrect programming of the alignment machine is just specific to the St. Louis service center, or whether additional service centers are experiencing this too. I'd imagine that right now all the service managers are checking to ensure they've got the right specs.

Then they'll have to consider calling all the cars that were given an incorrect alignment back in to re-align them, since the machine was wanting toe-out in the rear.

 

[Msolomi]

This after an alignment one month ago. I don't know anything about cars but I imagine it is not normal for it to be misaligned after one month after the alignment.

Any ideas of problem

 

[ACDriveMotor]

I am no expert but believe you can knock your car out of alignment via pothole, curb rash, etc.

 

[Musterion]

I recently did a service call on several items including wheel alignment at ~4000 mi. My car has never experienced trauma and is in mint condition. I had earlier put on new wheels (will need to show these off in another thread sometime) at home and so lined up my removed 19" wheels and took a side-by-side photo of the treadwear, which was visibly asymmetric on the rears (more inner wear, see attached) and quite a contrast with the front (inner groove on rears nearly all worn down, see arrows). I provided the photo to service who said they very much appreciated it. They did the 4 wheel alignment under warranty and found all four wheels out of alignment, all needing toe adjustment and 2 also camber. Notably the RR camber (technically not adjustable) was out of spec. I can confirm they used a new "camber adjustment bolt" to bring this into spec. The tech said he only had access to these bolts starting about two weeks ago. Alignment report attached. Note that the "specified ranges" on the report do match the most recent Model S specs in the manual, but do not all match the alignment TSB that has been previously posted. Preliminary driving tests are positive and I'll have more feedback after a lot more driving this Thanksgiving weekend.

 

[lolachampcar]

It seems like the bolt was worth 0.3 of a degree.