The car will have DC fast charging, but since they don't believe in long-distance BEV GM will take a hands-off approach to the charging network, which actually needs a hands-on approach to make it work, because the economics of public charging are so horrible that outsourcing to companies with subscription models and pay-per-charge chargers is just adding massive overhead.
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Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)
- Thread starter FredTMC
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The car will have DC fast charging, but since they don't believe in long-distance BEV GM will take a hands-off approach to the charging network, which actually needs a hands-on approach to make it work, because the economics of public charging are so horrible that outsourcing to companies with subscription models and pay-per-charge chargers is just adding massive overhead.
The BMW/VW/Chargepoint plan to install a bunch of CCS stations on the coasts may be enough to trigger critical mass.
BMW VW team up with Chargepoint to create high speed EV charging network
What is the number 1 challenge for high volume sales of BEVs?
It's not actually cost, because multiple manufacturers see cost reductions coming.
It's not range, because multiple manufacturers see range increases coming.
The number 1 challenge is charging.
There's the barrier of ubiquitous home charging, but that will be overcome by market demand and government support.
The problem is that you need fast charging to make ownership practical, unless you want BEVs limited to 2nd vehicles. Fast charging isn't just about how fast the vehicle itself charges, but also about access to fast charging. Access to fast charging isn't just about there being a fast charger en route, it's also about the fast charger being available for use when you get there.
If you want charging to be practical for long-distance travel, you want it to be as fast as possible to avoid adding too much time to trips.
If you want chargers to be available for use, you want charging to be as fast as possible to avoid contention.
If you want chargers to be available for use, you want to simplify the system as much as possible to maximize uptime.
If you believe that BEVs can and will be long-distance vehicles, installation of individual 62.5kW DC chargers with high operational overheads are not doing anything to help.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Well, looks like you are going to win this one
http://insideevs.com/breaking-general-motors-confirms-chevrolet-bolt-production/
But they are still short on details... And still no given date/year. And it will be "based on the Bolt EV concept", so how much it will resemble the Bolt concept it still an open question. So I won't be calling it a "win" until we get some more information.
More info on Bolt's battery cell costs and potential launch dates:
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/Externa...yfFBhcmVudElEPTUxOTQwNzR8Q2hpbGRJRD01OTYxNTU=
See pages 52 and 99 in the GM IR presentation.
Also some info on GM's autonomous roadmap in cooperation with MBLY, see pages 47-49.
Presumably their *EV models such as Volt and Bolt will be among the first to get these features.
Departed.
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/Externa...yfFBhcmVudElEPTUxOTQwNzR8Q2hpbGRJRD01OTYxNTU=
See pages 52 and 99 in the GM IR presentation.
Also some info on GM's autonomous roadmap in cooperation with MBLY, see pages 47-49.
Presumably their *EV models such as Volt and Bolt will be among the first to get these features.
If I read GM's slides ("6 for 16", page 99) correctly the GM Bolt is intended for production by late 2016 already. That is not 'years away' (see post below).
Departed.
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They show $145 as fixed cell price for next 2 years.
So, they have a 2 year contract with fixed cell pricing, with an option for another 2 years at same price. Only in 2019 their the price could start to go under $145.
And Bolt is still years away, so their 'today price' means nothing.
This is not so much about the current cell price as is about the expected cost of their cells for next 4 years.
They expect the price to stay at same $145 level.
Tesla was around 170/kWh at cell level almost a year ago. Given 7% annual decrease of pricing for next 4 years, statistics say they 'should be' around $137/kWh in 2019.
Competitive.
So, they have a 2 year contract with fixed cell pricing, with an option for another 2 years at same price. Only in 2019 their the price could start to go under $145.
And Bolt is still years away, so their 'today price' means nothing.
This is not so much about the current cell price as is about the expected cost of their cells for next 4 years.
They expect the price to stay at same $145 level.
Tesla was around 170/kWh at cell level almost a year ago. Given 7% annual decrease of pricing for next 4 years, statistics say they 'should be' around $137/kWh in 2019.
Competitive.
Breezy
Member
It means something for the Volt, and like tftf says it looks like they're planning the Bolt for a 2016 launch.
(This competition is great. This is almost like waiting to see whether Chevy or Ford will have the best new pickup trucks...)
When GM says production, that doesn't mean customer availability. For example, the ELR:
First 2014 Cadillac ELR Production Test Cars Rolling Off Assembly Line
First production vehicles rolled off the assembly line in late May, 2013. First customer deliveries were December, 2013, which was, coincidentally, 6. Then 41 in January. So launch is probably not the right word, especially on a new product. The 2016 Volt went into production in late July. First deliveries should be this month after a brief QA hold.
I think we will see the first Bolt deliveries in Q1 or Q2, 2017 barring any major problems.
It's a BEV conversion of a Buick Encore or Chevy Trax. It should be pretty similar to those vehicles in the end.
Good to see that their 2017/2018 pricing will be close to Tesla's 2015 pricing, albeit for an inferior battery chemistry. At about $190/kWh at the pack level, it should cost GM about $10,450 for the pack at 55 kWh. Cost to consumer at $11,500 assuming 10% mark up. Assuming that GM ups the percentage available from the 75% or so in the 2016 Volt to about 85% in the Bolt, that's 47 kWh available. At 235 Wh/kg, that's cell weight of 234 kg or 515 lbs. Using a Model S cell to pack ratio in weight for the pack structure (more generous than the Leaf for instance), that's 830 lbs for the battery pack. The Leaf's battery pack is 650 lbs for instance. I'm not sure the Chevy Trax can take much more than that. Assuming 3.75 miles/kWh, that's 176 miles of EPA range, which means well over 200 miles of UDDS range. We'll see how much battery capacity GM actually puts into the Bolt and how much of that battery they let drivers use. I'm pretty shocked at how little they allow the Volt owners to use.
In comparison, the current silicon anode NCA cells used by Tesla have a specific energy higher than 260 Wh/kg. Assuming another generation of improvement of 4%, we're talking 270 Wh/kg. So for a 60 kWh battery pack, the cells would weight 222 kg, or 489.5 lbs, or a pack weight of 790 pounds. Since Tesla lets us use about 92% of the battery, we have 55 kWh of usable pack. So the comparison would be 830 lbs for 47 kWh versus 790 lbs for 55 kWh. As a result, assuming 4 miles/kWh, that's 220 miles of EPA range. Tesla's cost per kWh is likely already lower than $150/kWh at the cell level. Assuming the cost of the packs is nearly identical, since Tesla's cost per kWh is slightly lower, the difference in range is likely around 25%.
First 2014 Cadillac ELR Production Test Cars Rolling Off Assembly Line
First production vehicles rolled off the assembly line in late May, 2013. First customer deliveries were December, 2013, which was, coincidentally, 6. Then 41 in January. So launch is probably not the right word, especially on a new product. The 2016 Volt went into production in late July. First deliveries should be this month after a brief QA hold.
I think we will see the first Bolt deliveries in Q1 or Q2, 2017 barring any major problems.
It's a BEV conversion of a Buick Encore or Chevy Trax. It should be pretty similar to those vehicles in the end.
Good to see that their 2017/2018 pricing will be close to Tesla's 2015 pricing, albeit for an inferior battery chemistry. At about $190/kWh at the pack level, it should cost GM about $10,450 for the pack at 55 kWh. Cost to consumer at $11,500 assuming 10% mark up. Assuming that GM ups the percentage available from the 75% or so in the 2016 Volt to about 85% in the Bolt, that's 47 kWh available. At 235 Wh/kg, that's cell weight of 234 kg or 515 lbs. Using a Model S cell to pack ratio in weight for the pack structure (more generous than the Leaf for instance), that's 830 lbs for the battery pack. The Leaf's battery pack is 650 lbs for instance. I'm not sure the Chevy Trax can take much more than that. Assuming 3.75 miles/kWh, that's 176 miles of EPA range, which means well over 200 miles of UDDS range. We'll see how much battery capacity GM actually puts into the Bolt and how much of that battery they let drivers use. I'm pretty shocked at how little they allow the Volt owners to use.
In comparison, the current silicon anode NCA cells used by Tesla have a specific energy higher than 260 Wh/kg. Assuming another generation of improvement of 4%, we're talking 270 Wh/kg. So for a 60 kWh battery pack, the cells would weight 222 kg, or 489.5 lbs, or a pack weight of 790 pounds. Since Tesla lets us use about 92% of the battery, we have 55 kWh of usable pack. So the comparison would be 830 lbs for 47 kWh versus 790 lbs for 55 kWh. As a result, assuming 4 miles/kWh, that's 220 miles of EPA range. Tesla's cost per kWh is likely already lower than $150/kWh at the cell level. Assuming the cost of the packs is nearly identical, since Tesla's cost per kWh is slightly lower, the difference in range is likely around 25%.
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pox
Member
Took my Volt in for a software update and my Chevy Dealer yesterday said they just got a emails on marking and trim levels for a 2016/17 Chevy Bolt! They are placing orders for their allotment now and they might start shipping early next year! He was telling me they might get them before the new 2017 Volts. Can anyone confirm this or is he just confused?
The 2017 Volt is coming out earlier than usual in the spring of 2016 and I very much doubt that the Bolt will be available then. The usual rumors about the Bolt have said production was targeted for late 2016 with deliveries in early 2017 as a 2017 model year. So, the 2017 Volt would be available for customer delivery 9-12 months before the 2017 Bolt. Yes, this is a little confusing! Who knows, maybe they have moved up their Bolt plans and are starting production and delivery sooner than the rumors said? Doubtful.
New Chevy ad for the 2016 Volt taking a swipe at the range of the Nissan LEAF. Never mind that Chevy basically throws their own Spark under the bus (with the same "limited" range), and also the Bolt to a certain extent....Why not tell us about all the great new features that the newly redesigned Volt has?
As an already-EV driver, I just can't get too excited about their new product when they present it this way...
2016 Chevy Volt ads strike frustrating, yet familiar, chord
As an already-EV driver, I just can't get too excited about their new product when they present it this way...
2016 Chevy Volt ads strike frustrating, yet familiar, chord
GM just publicly disclosed their cost for Chevy Bolt battery cells. I think this is very unusual as battery costs have been kept secret by all the major players and are only guessed at in public.
At a financial presentation the other day, GM showed a graph claiming $145 per kWh cell cost in 2016. That's probably no more than Tesla pays today which is.... shocking. They project steady costs for several years and then a drop to $120 in 2020 and then $100 in 2022. This implies to me that they did a deal with LG to lock in artificially low prices in 2016 in return for a several year production contract.
At a financial presentation the other day, GM showed a graph claiming $145 per kWh cell cost in 2016. That's probably no more than Tesla pays today which is.... shocking. They project steady costs for several years and then a drop to $120 in 2020 and then $100 in 2022. This implies to me that they did a deal with LG to lock in artificially low prices in 2016 in return for a several year production contract.
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Bangor Bob
Member
It's a platform-mate to the Buick Encore. Any "weirdmobile-ness" would be a deliberate decision on GM's part to subdue demand.
The Encore starts at $24k MSRP, so there's plenty of pricing room to yank out the ICE systems and get a decent sized battery and electric drivetrain into it at a $42k MSRP. ($35k after fed rebate)
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This is the one thing I still do not understand....if GM thinks it has a better position on battery prices than Tesla, why would they allow their design team to copy something they already have than trying to make a nice looking car? Whatever the look of the Model 3, it will be stylish.......so Tesla has GM already beat on style AND battery chemistry.
It DOES look like GM is trying to do the bare minimum for appealing to the masses......
Breezy
Member
So you're saying all GM designs are ugly?
Presumably they think that some of their existing designs are nice looking.At any rate, being a platform-mate doesn't mean vehicles will look the same. Overall footprint, some steering and suspension parts in common is about it. I don't imagine there will be any sheet metal stampings in common between the Bolt and other GM products.
So you're saying all GM designs are ugly?
At any rate, being a platform-mate doesn't mean vehicles will look the same. Overall footprint, some steering and suspension parts in common is about it. I don't imagine there will be any sheet metal stampings in common between the Bolt and other GM products.
haha, no. I'm strictly talking about the Bolt model they are promoting for an EV.
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