glhs272
Unnamed plug faced villian
Hmm... they are thinking air cooled battery. That might limit it's fast charging potential.
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Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)
- Thread starter FredTMC
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Hmm... they are thinking air cooled battery. That might limit it's fast charging potential.
And discourage sales in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida...
Petra
Member
Air cooled prismatic li-ion cells? It'll depend on the chemistry, but that could impact way more than just the ability to fast charge (thinking of the battery in my Leaf that lost 25% capacity in 20k miles due to the heat out here).
Not clear exactly what was said by GM and what is speculation by Car and Driver. It appears that the "at least 50 kWh" is Car and Driver speculation. So is the air cooled part. GM North American president Mark Reuss "stresses that the 200-mile range claim for this pure electric is conservative and that test units are having no difficulty topping that."
Breezy
Member
That's just the concept. There are some interior shots here, but partly covered.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/07/chevy-bolt-interior-spied/#slide-3654699
The cells are almost certainly not "prismatic" -- that implies a rigid cell enclosure that is less volumetrically dense and many people including GM PR folks say prismatic when they mean pouch.
I think air cooling was speculation by Car & Driver. I don't think it's likely but it's certainly possible. Here are some slides starting around page 20 where LG Chem talks about a battery pack design that actively cools using low velocity air and a cold plate hooked up to the car's A/C coolant loop. This is from 3 years ago so it's terribly out of date.... but it's possible they will productized it since LG is building the pack and the A/C system. They claim it lowers costs, eliminates the risk of liquid coolant leaks, and is more efficient.
http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f10/es002_alamgir_2012_p.pdf
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The "prismatic" term may be describing the shape, however, for example here when referencing a pouch cell:
http://www.a123systems.com/prismatic-cell-amp20.htm
Although I get your point that a pouch cell doesn't have a rigid cell enclosure technically (while prismatic typically refers to one that does). The term used is typically "laminate" to distinguish the pouch cell.
I don't understand why people are amused at this. There's another example in the ICE world similar to this situation. Yamaha does not make their own cars, yet they create/tune some of the best engines for established carmakers (Toyota/Ford). So why wouldn't LG be suited to this task considering they're very proficient in electronics? Does a fridge not have a motor? Is it not their interest to make that motor as efficient as possible? Does that knowledge not transfer over to automobiles? Does an automobile not have a "fridge" wouldn't that knowledge transfer over as well? Insulation? How similar is the Model S' interface to a smartphone? Does LG not have competence in that arena? How noisy are LG's washing machines?
Maybe the thinking should shift to: I'll just dry this shirt on the way to work...
Do you know some people have shifted their living preference to the back of a vehicle?:wink:
Yeah, I don't disagree. I suspect many folks will indeed make decisions based on that, with folks looking for long distance travel being the most concerned.
On the other hand, I think there are plenty of folks for whom 80 miles out of an existing BEV doesn't cut it, or are looking to move up from their previous BEV, and 250% of the previous range is darn attractive. These are people for whom DCFC is likely not nearly as big a factor.
Hopefully as Tesla (and Chevy) increase the competition for more automakers to enter the med-range market, the impetus for more DCFC infrastructure will increase.
I see CCS is rated for up to 90kW with a max of 450VDC. Assuming the battery pack is 300-400 volts, that would be 60-80KW out of the current 200A limited plug, no?
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Your timing regrading the Leaf w spot on... in the Tesla BEV Competition Developments thread it was just posted about the 300-mile range 60Kwh 2018 Leaf being announced.
Game on!
Sure, if there was a sufficient price difference. However, at near the same price, the DCFC network does come into play.
Definitely the pressure will be there at some point, but note the lag time. After a revision to the CCS combo plug is finalized, then EVSE manufacturers can finalize their products, then get certification, and then they can be deployed. Historically, this has taken a while. For products shipping in 2017, the spec pretty much has to exist today to make any dent by launch.
At an average rate of 50-60kW (taper included), it would be very hard to get to 80% charge in 45 minutes on a 60 kWh battery. Plus, there are only a handful of 200 amp CCS EVSE's in the field. Most them these days are 125 amps. Still quite a few are the even lower power ones that are basically equivalent to 80 amp J1772.
Certainly true. There are also folks who will only "buy 'Murican!" Certainly there are different motivators...
The point being that there are lots of BEV's on the road today that demonstrate that lack of a fully fleshed out DCFC is not a barrier to adoption for a segment of the population.
Increase the range by 250%, and that segment just got substantially larger, I'd bet. (Which in turn helps the chicken-and-egg problem associated with motivating the installation of more DCFC stations...)
Trying to keep current Leaf owners from defecting to the new new thing. I'm surprised they can fit 60kwh.
I don't see any majors building out DCFC on their own. They may cooperate and not include Tesla. But Nissan would seem to me to be the one large company that might cooperate with tesla if their is an exception. They are the Asian outlier when it comes to EV.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Or if it's the only option for a year. But your point is a valid one, and I suspect that as more competitors enter the fray, we'll see pricing pressure... which is nothing but good for consumers.
Well I've seen speculation that the Bolt pack is also a 96S arrangement, which implies ~400V. That's 80KW peak charger power (200A@400V) that it's capable of taking.
That's a 1.33 (60KWh battery) or 1.6 (50KWh pack) C rate. Tesla advertises 80% in 40 minutes, and the 120Kwh superchargers are a 1.41 C rate. So advertising 45 minutes for the same seems in the ballpark.
Agreed that they need to get the old infrastructure upgraded... L2 rates for DCFC ain't gonna make the folks buying these for distance travel happy.
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But on a 60kwh battery that goes 300 miles, the range would increase per minute almost as fast as a Tesla. It might pick up 150 miles in 30 minutes if it has active cooling.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
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