Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[McRat]

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McRat, do you have a response to this? No BEV would ever behave this way. Even the i3 REx doesn't cripple the battery performance without gas. And if Gen 2 volt does the same thing, then that's a shame, and it clearly makes the volt a PHEV or EREV.

You need to think about how you actually drive a car. If you drive the car normally, when the battery runs out, the gasoline engine comes on. If the fuel level is low, it will show on the gauge and give you lots of warning. If you insist on not refueling, you will be stranded eventually if you continue to ignore warnings.

The Volt isn't the only car that will try and stop you from stranding yourself. But as the saying goes, if you make something idiot-proof, someone will just develop a better idiot to defeat it.

 

[McRat]

I'm under the impression that the i3 REx does in fact have a similar maintenance mode to the Volt, though I've never spent enough time in one to know if it cripples the car when the fuel tank is empty.

The REx cripples it in a different way. If the battery runs out, and the buffer runs out, the ICE powerplant is essentially a Limp Mode device. It does not have the power to safely propel a 3000lb car. 35hp? If there is no gas in the tank, IIRC, at a point the electric motor will derate to ECO mode or something.

 

[mtndrew1]

You need to think about how you actually drive a car. If you drive the car normally, when the battery runs out, the gasoline engine comes on. If the fuel level is low, it will show on the gauge and give you lots of warning. If you insist on not refueling, you will be stranded eventually if you continue to ignore warnings.

The Volt isn't the only car that will try and stop you from stranding yourself. But as the saying goes, if you make something idiot-proof, someone will just develop a better idiot to defeat it.

I think the implied novelty here is that one can run a Volt out of gasoline and then refill its battery and it won't run at full capacity. There is no way to operate a Volt without a reasonable amount of gasoline on board, whether or not the battery is charged.

 

[McRat]

I think the implied novelty here is that one can run a Volt out of gasoline and then refill its battery and it won't run at full capacity. There is no way to operate a Volt without a reasonable amount of gasoline on board, whether or not the battery is charged.

Runflats are not designed to be operated a zero pressure, but you can do it.

Volts are not designed to be operated on an empty tank, hence the fuel gauge and warnings. But you can do it.

If you like, you can put a resistor in the PCM harness connector so it always thinks the gas tank is full. This will defeat the safety system. Cost? Under $1.

You can also disable the airbags with resistors to save money if you have an accident.

Another trick is, if your car is capable of running without coolant, it will run at partial power. You can fix that by putting a resistor in where the water temp sensor is. So if the engine overheats, you can run until it lets loose or catches fire.

 

[mtndrew1]

Runflats are not designed to be operated a zero pressure, but you can do it.

Volts are not designed to be operated on an empty tank, hence the fuel gauge and warnings. But you can do it.

If you like, you can put a resistor in the PCM harness connector so it always thinks the gas tank is full. Cost? Under $1.

You can also disable the airbags with resistors to save money if you have an accident.

What a bizarre response, particularly considering I was defending the Volt's design in my above post. Probably just more FUD from me and I should just quote "Who Killed the Electric Car." Or something.

Moving on, Bolts aren't selling well in EV-centric states and are being heavily discounted six months into launch.

 

[Zaxxon]

I had the opportunity to test drive a Bolt today. Here are a few thoughts.

Background
I've test-driven Teslas many times, and nearly bought a Model X in early 2016 (wound up with a Volvo XC90 PHEV instead, for many reasons that have been rehashed on this forum before and aren't relevant here other than to say that I own a PHEV). I own a 30 kWh Nissan Leaf, and that's my daily driver (the wife has the Volvo most days). I'm a morning-of-3/31/16 Model 3 reservation holder and plan to replace the Leaf with a 3 once AWD 3s hit Colorado. But the Bolt is a vehicle that begs to be compared to the 3, as despite their many differences they are fairly similar in the departments most important to me: full BEV with 200+ miles of range.

Things I liked

• One-pedal driving is much better than the Leaf. Put the Bolt in L and you will come to a stop without needing the brake for anything but slamming.
• Motor power and regen are both more powerful than the Leaf.
• Seemed a little roomier both in front and back.
• The LCD displays are neat. Not Tesla neat, but much better than 2017 Leaf neat.
• 200+ miles of range!
• It's a weirdmobile, but a bit less egregiously so than the Leaf.

Things I didn't like

• It's considerably more expensive than the Leaf. It's right in Model 3 territory, and aside from 'you can get one now,' (which to be clear is a valid reason!) I'm not sure why someone would opt for the Bolt over the 3 given its massive deficiencies compared to the 3. (No AWD, no autopilot, no Supercharging, no cool glass roof, less pep, brought to market by 'we killed the electric car GM', etc)
• DCFC speed and availability are a joke compared to the Supercharger network. It's a step up from the Leaf for sure, but not near the same league as Supercharging.
• Interior materials aren't that great for a $40k vehicle. This could end up being a non-complaint if the 3 is in the same boat. I do expect slightly better materials feel in the 3, though.
• No form of L2 autonomy available. Lane departure assistance and BLIS only. This is a $40k vehicle in 2017, folks.
• After having owned the Leaf for some time, it feels like it has more personality than the Bolt. I understand that that's a very subjective thing, though.

Misc thoughts

• I had thought Colorado allocations had begun en masse last month, but it turns out that's not the case. This dealer had purchased the Bolts (just arrived in CO this week) off of a California dealer, and they do not anticipate getting their own allocations for some time yet. That suggests 1) GM isn't pushing it out as fast as promised (prior promise was May for Colorado availability), and 2) At least some California dealers are selling to other dealers rather than their own customers.
• If there were no Model 3 or redesigned Leaf on the horizon, I'd seriously consider the Bolt. It's a solid effort from GM, and I give them credit for kinda-sorta beating Tesla and Nissan to the punch in terms of producing a relatively affordable 200-mile EV (The kinda-sorta will be removed once the Bolt is widely available in all 50 states to walk in and purchase.). But since we live in a world where the Bolt will be competing with the 3 and Nissan's next effort, I think it's got its work cut out for it.

 

[mtndrew1]

$7200-7500 off MSRP on the Bolt at chevynorthridge.com (Rydell).

Yikes.

Good lord, last week they were $3,500 off. It looks like a $4,000 GM rebate has been added to Rydell's $3,500 discount. Holy smokes.

 

[gregd]

The Volt is a PHEV, despite all arguments to the contrary. It needs fuel in the tank to keep the lines from getting air pockets or the engine from misfiring upon restart. The engine needs to run regularly to bring fluids and emissions systems up to temperature and keep moving parts lubricated. GM, in my opinion, made the right call in keeping the car in a limp mode unless it has fuel in the tank; not doing so could risk major damage to expensive components in the long run.

Ok, good point. But to me its described high profile nagging about filling the tank and immediately engaging limp mode is the indicator of their objective, not the need to protect the engine. It could simply not try to start the engine if it were out of gas, and increase the nagging (with an explanation) over time to protect the system long-term.

As for the Bolt (trying to get on topic here...), some of the choices made (e.g. calling high-regen "Low" on the selector) have me wondering if they did this as a way to help transition legacy vehicle drivers into the EV era (kudos, if so), or an indication that their heart and soul is still stuck firmly in the gas era. Back to Conway's law, if the organization hasn't made the transition to EVs, their products won't either.

 

[Jeff N]

Ok, good point. But to me its described high profile nagging about filling the tank and immediately engaging limp mode is the indicator of their objective, not the need to protect the engine. It could simply not try to start the engine if it were out of gas, and increase the nagging (with an explanation) over time to protect the system long-term.

I just have to say, I drove a Volt for 6 years and 143,000 miles and this issue came up exactly never. The number of Volt owners who would ever experience this scenario is very small -- most won't run out of gas and those that do will likely have done so after already running out of usable battery storage. From what I can tell, the few people who have experienced this and written about their experience were almost all deliberately testing this scenario to find out what would happen.

 

[bro1999]

As far as delivering "EV miles" goes, GM is right up there with the best of them. That said, GM sells two PHEVs and one BEV. The BEV arrived with enormous fanfare and has kind of fallen on its face due almost entirely to its pricing structure and, to a lesser extent, its weird seats and cheap interior materials.

Back to the Bolt, Mary Barra didn't pose proudly on the cover of Wired for the new Malibu or Silverado so the car is a big deal. It's a little alarming that we're seeing $149 leases and 10% discounts on the thing six months or so into its rollout before it even hits the whole country.

I was personally hoping to see bazillions of Bolts on the road at this point and I hope that GM, GM-ing itself, doesn't screw up the mid-priced BEV segment. In my opinion 25,000 Bolt deliveries a year won't move the EV needle much in the grand scheme of things.

$149 leases with $4k down. Not cheap by any means. Unless you compare it to a Tesla lease.

 

[bro1999]

Good lord, last week they were $3,500 off. It looks like a $4,000 GM rebate has been added to Rydell's $3,500 discount. Holy smokes.

The extra $3500 is lease incentives that take the place of (some) of the fed tax credit. You can't get 7500 off a Bolt, or anywhere near that, if you want to purchase.

 

[wdolson]

That I'm not sure of. I know when I run out of gas, bad things happen in all my vehicles that require gas. The fuel in the bottom of the tank isn't as clean as you think it is. It's not like it doesn't give you a lot of warning.

I found that out with my Buick. For the last 10 years or so I had it, it effectively had about 2 gallons less capacity, if the tank got down into that last 2 gallons the car did not run well. One time it came very close to stalling in an intersection when I got down into those dregs.

I think I chipped away at the gunk a bit though with some gas additive to clean the fuel system. The last couple of years I seemed to be able to get down a bit lower without running into trouble, though I didn't want to chance it.

 

[wdolson]

I don't really want to give early judgments because usually the first year it's supply limited, but given recent evidence that the Bolts seem to be gathering up in California lots (the market where it should be most popular), that has me scratching my head too. A year later maybe things will be more clear (if the theory is right that Model 3 waiting is holding up demand).

The problem is if the Bolt had a conventional ICE power train, it would sell for $20K or less. GM is slapping a pretty hefty premium on the vehicle to make a BEV and losing money doing it.

It is one of the better non-Tesla BEVs to date, but I do think a lot of people are holding off, waiting to see what the Model 3 will bring. People already know the Model 3 will be bigger, and there is a good chance the base version's performance will be better than the Bolt.

 

[EinSV]

The extra $3500 is lease incentives that take the place of (some) of the fed tax credit. You can't get 7500 off a Bolt, or anywhere near that, if you want to purchase.

Yesterday Rydell's website showed $7200 and $7500 discounts on the Bolt. As @mtndrew1 notes $4000 of that was a "Chevrolet Instant Value Certificate" and the rest a dealer discount.

The "Instant Value" discount has now been reduced to $2000 for a total discount of $5200-$5500. Maybe GM was worried about bad publicity from the earlier discounts and decided to backtrack. In any case $5200-$5500 is still a hefty discount for a brand new $40K model that just hit the dealer lots a few months ago.

Screenshot of the updated pricing is below -- it clearly states the discount applies to purchases.

 

[bro1999]

Yesterday Rydell's website showed $7200 and $7500 discounts on the Bolt. As @mtndrew1 notes $4000 of that was a "Chevrolet Instant Value Certificate" and the rest a dealer discount.

The "Instant Value" discount has now been reduced to $2000 for a total discount of $5200-$5500. Maybe GM was worried about bad publicity from the earlier discounts and decided to backtrack. In any case $5200-$5500 is still a hefty discount for a brand new $40K model that just hit the dealer lots a few months ago.

Screenshot of the updated pricing is below -- it clearly states the discount applies to purchases.

View attachment 229485

Now that's a deal! Bolt sales in June will likely top 2k for sure.

 

[diamond.g]

I just have to say, I drove a Volt for 6 years and 143,000 miles and this issue came up exactly never. The number of Volt owners who would ever experience this scenario is very small -- most won't run out of gas and those that do will likely have done so after already running out of usable battery storage. From what I can tell, the few people who have experienced this and written about their experience were almost all deliberately testing this scenario to find out what would happen.

To be honest I do kind of push the fuel issue on my commute to work. If work could offer plugs I would use very little gas, but they don't....

I am glad to hear the Bolt has enough range to at least get me to and from work on a very cold day, and maybe around my local area.

 

[McRat]

As for the Bolt (trying to get on topic here...), some of the choices made (e.g. calling high-regen "Low" on the selector) have me wondering if they did this as a way to help transition legacy vehicle drivers into the EV era (kudos, if so), or an indication that their heart and soul is still stuck firmly in the gas era. Back to Conway's law, if the organization hasn't made the transition to EVs, their products won't either.

You don't want to hear this, but Mary has quite a bit experience with electrical engineering and electric cars. She knows more about cars than anybody on this site, including electric ones. You don't get to the top of food chain in the auto industry by sleeping with the boss or affirmative action. She had to be better than every single CEO available, and then some, to get the job. Because like it or not, corporations know that a certain percentage of men do not consider women competent. So she had to be better than the best male candidate by more than that percentage. She's arguably the brightest automotive CEO currently holding that title. And she knows electric cars.

Not everybody likes to play with their cars. So you can drive any GM cars just like a 2010 car, even the race versions and electrics. Or you can play with them. That's my hobby.

You can think of it as legacy if you wish. I think of it as good engineering. Grandma can drive a 650HP CTS-V with no fear, but it will also hang with some serious track cars if you turn off the babysitters and step on it's tail.

The Bolt is the same way with one minor exception. They did not use a completely conventional console shifter. It's more like a auto-manual gate. It's just slightly different than a normal console shifter and far simpler to understand than some.

 

[McRat]

To be honest I do kind of push the fuel issue on my commute to work.

Diamond: "I was in a hurry to get to work. For the last week I ignored the LOW FUEL display so I had no idea how much gas there was, since it was indicating zero. While my car was fully charged that morning, and had plenty of range to get to work or to a gas station, I decided my best way to get to work was to press the MODE button 3 times to force the cars ICE to suck the crap at the bottom of the tank until I ran the pump dry and to see if the fuel pump can overheat, or if I could clog the fuel filter or injectors. It's much better than running on the charged electric battery.

Sadly, it didn't burn up the fuel pump or clog the filter or clog the injectors. It simply drained the tank completely. The stupid POS just gave ANOTHER warning and reduced my power so I would have maximum possible range.

What a piece of garbage. My Prius/Etc/Etc is 1000% better. When it runs out of gas, I just call a tow truck. Easy peezy. I'll never buy a GM product again. Crappy design will leave you stranded every damn day."


Was that a better description of the situation?

 

[diamond.g]

Diamond: "I was in a hurry to get to work. For the last week I ignored the LOW FUEL display so I had no idea how much gas there was, since it was indicating zero. While my car was fully charged that morning, and had plenty of range to get to work or to a gas station, I decided my best way to get to work was to press the MODE button 3 times to force the cars ICE to suck the crap at the bottom of the tank until I ran the pump dry and to see if the fuel pump can overheat, or if I could clog the fuel filter or injectors. It's much better than running on the charged electric battery.

Sadly, it didn't burn up the fuel pump or clog the filter or clog the injectors. It simply drained the tank completely. The stupid POS just gave ANOTHER warning and reduced my power so I would have maximum possible range.

What a piece of garbage. My Prius/Etc/Etc is 1000% better. When it runs out of gas, I just call a tow truck. Easy peezy. I'll never buy a GM product again. Crappy design will leave you stranded every damn day."


Was that a better description of the situation?

Honestly not really. To be frank I have yet to actually run out of gas. In most cases the GOM tells me I can drive 70 miles (20 EV 50 gas), which should be enough to get from Falls Church to Spotsylvania. the trick is about 40 of those miles is on the interstate, where it is a waste to run on battery (due to speed). So I use hold mode. The point that was trying to be made is if the Volt really was an EV with just a range extender then it should be reasonable to expect the car to not freak out if there is still battery left, but no gas. I actually like my car.

 

[AndY1]