Concerns over Model 3 Performance brakes efficiency. How good is it? After market brakes?

[MODEL+]

Upgrade your tires and upgrade your brake fluid. Revisit.

 

[Mash]

it stops in exactly the same distance as the P+ with the same tires.

The tires, not the brakes, determine stopping distance. That's how physics works.

The brakes (AND the tires) determine subjective "feel"

See also the $10,000 brake upgrade kit Porsche offers, that also stops the car in the same distance as the stock brakes when on the same tires.


Now, if you're on a track stopping from 120 mph for the 4th time within a couple of minutes, the smaller/weaker system might start taking longer until they cool.... but bigger brakes can't ever make you stop shorter the first time from any speed you'd drive on a public road.

As much as I don't want to feed your Crusade of Captain Obvious, I have to say that:
1. You keep coming everywhere talking about stopping distance when people talking about "the feel". The required amount of force on a brake pedal is scary high and I don't even remember that Tesla ever engaged brake assist at high speed for me.
2. I didn't see anyone tested stopping distance from 150mph on a performance tires for non performance brakes - it can easily boil epoxy at the end of the single braking. You have no data for that.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Hi

I had a great opportunity to buy a brand-new model 3 performance from someone else. Apparently, he needs that money for his business. The car is arriving mid-late next month. Despite ordering the Performance model, I’ve never driven it. I’ve ridden in it. It was amazingly quick as my head was pushed towards the sofa-like head rest.

The dealer that I got the deal from let me drive the model 3 long range dual motors. I was impressed by the swiftness despite its weight. The only downside that stands out to me is the brake. The suspension is a bit loose but not too hard to control. The engine brake is awesome.

Brakes are bad. I mean.. really bad. To give a little bit of my background. I currently own a 991.2 Carrera GTS and a F90 M5 competition. These cars have good brakes. M5 is a bit over 2tons including me and it brakes really well. I know they are in a different class. What I am trying to say is, the brakes feeling of the model 3 feels incredibly loose. It’s like it wouldn’t stop.

I know that it was the LR dual motors. I wonder if the Performance model offers a substantially better brakes. How well do they perform? Is the initial bite more noticeable? Should I get a set of aftermarket brakes like Brembo, Alcon?

Thanks.

Let's try and settle this.
@GasGasGas What do you want to improve?

1. Stopping distance
or
2. Brake feel and bite

Thanks

 

[Clivew]

The base brakes will stop the car in exactly the same distance as the most expensive high end brake kit you can buy if the tires are the same, because the tires, not the brakes, are what stop the car.

It can't ever make it stop shorter, because physics.

No, the standard brakes will not stop the car in exactly the same distance as a high performance brake set-up due to numerous reasons.

A performance brake set-up will allow maximum brake pressure, and thus maximum retardation, to be achieved in a faster time.

This is due to the following;

Reduced hose expansion of braided hoses compared to standard rubber, allowing a faster increase to maximum hydraulic pressure. A rubber brake hose allows more volume change before maximum pressure is achieved.

High performance calipers have less flex and can achieve faster pad to disc maximum pressure.

A higher torque produced at initial application from a larger performance brake pad. (which has to overcome the kinetic energy of the rotating wheel/tyre)

Anti-knockback springs are used in performance calipers to ensure the brake pads are pressed against the discs at all times. The extra time taken for pads to be pressed back against the discs due to knock-back and piston pull back due to seals on a standard caliper, can be appreciable. In fact Tesla use a caliper which specifically pulls the piston back to ensure reduced drag.

A change in master cylinder to caliper total piston area ratio can reduce the brake pedal movement required for maximum hydraulic pressure.

All these things allow a faster deceleration of the wheel/tyre to the point of maximum friction, and thus a shorter stopping distance.

Even if this time is reduced by 0.01seconds, everything else being equal, the stopping distance is not exactly the same, it is shorter.

At 180mph, a 0.1 sec improvement to maximum retardation from initial brake pedal application is equal to a shorter stopping distance of 26.4 feet.

If you’d ever driven a high performance car with no ABS, running UHP semi slicks, and tested the time to lock-up at 180mph and thus braking distances, comparing different calipers, pad compounds, disc diameters etc (but the same tyres), you’d know the appreciable differences in stopping distance, from this one factor.

Your reaction time as a driver affects braking distances, and the braking system reaction time adds to this.

Other factors that shorten braking distances are as follows;

A standard OEM brake set-up is biased on the side of safety in regards to brake bias. A performance brake kit can change brake balance towards the rear and allow all tyres to be brought closer to their simultaneous friction peak, thus increasing maximum deceleration.

Because ABS alternately increase and decrease brake pressure to try and control wheel speed closest to the best slip ratio** for the OEM tyre fitted, the above factors in regards to better control of brake pressure due to braided hoses and less caliper flex allow the ABS to control wheel speed faster and more accurately, thus reducing braking distances.

**A tyre produces maximum friction and thus braking force at a defined slip ratio.

BTW, I have qualifications in aircraft braking systems and have designed, manufactured and tested high performance brake kits.

 

[Needsdecaf]

OP, I had a LRAWD which was totaled. I upgraded to a Performance and have much more confidence in the braking feel and control.

I recently owned a 991.1 C2S and now have a 997 Turbo S with PCCB's. Obviously the Tesla brakes are nowhere near that but I no longer feel nervous like I did with the LRAWD car. You'll be fine.

Also, as others have said, a pad swap makes a big difference. I've had multiple friends who track their M3P and have done it on stock rotors and calipers just changing pads. Stock pads are NOT meant for the track. Don't even think about it, you WILL destroy them in less than 2 sessions.

I think you'll be fine with it.

 

[Knightshade]

No, the standard brakes will not stop the car in exactly the same distance as a high performance brake set-up due to numerous reasons.

Except, they will.

Because that's how physics works.

N
A performance brake set-up will allow maximum brake pressure, and thus maximum retardation, to be achieved in a faster time.

This is due to the following;

This is due to your imagination.

Once you reacht he limit of the tires- which the stock brakes can do exactly as fast as upgraded brakes, then MOAR BRAKES does not slow you any faster

It can't.

Again because that's how physics work.


Go read the essay it linked to.

it explains all this in detail- with math and everything.

Reduced hose expansion of braided hoses compared to standard rubber, allowing a faster increase to maximum hydraulic pressure. A rubber brake hose allows more volume change before maximum pressure is achieved.

Factually wrong- and debunked in the essay.

In interest of brevity I cut out your other claims- because again they're almost all specifically debunked as factually wrong in the essay.

Go read it.

All these things allow a faster deceleration of the wheel/tyre to the point of maximum friction, and thus a shorter stopping distance.

Except, they do not.

Again- the essay goes through each element of a braking system- describing what they do and how, and why upgrading them can not reduce your stopping distance.

BTW, I have qualifications in aircraft braking systems and have designed, manufactured and tested high performance brake kits.

Ok.

And the author of the essay that says you're wrong has done so for actual car manufacturers.... and for Stoptech making BBKs.

And teaches SAE master classes on braking system design and funciton.

He has literally written books on this topic

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DL3LTYK/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0



His resume seems better than yours.


Also his math, facts, and physics.


But from a strict marketing point of view- if brake upgrades actually stopped you shorter than Stoptech, Brembo, and others would be screaming that fact from the mountains.

Instead Brembos FAQ explicitly tells you they don't even measure normal highway stopping distance because their kits do not reduce it since it's determined by the tires.

Stoptech has numerous white papers saying the same thing.

As much as I don't want to feed your Crusade of Captain Obvious

See above.

Clearly it's not as obvious as you think, since people keep getting it wrong.

A
, I have to say that:
1. You keep coming everywhere talking about stopping distance when people talking about "the feel".

I already corrected this one.

The OP asked about feel and performance

Not just feel.

Guess you missed the first time I pointed out in post #15 in the thread.

 

[Phlier]

Gents, @Knightshade is 100% correct. How quickly you can decelerate is completely dependent on the tire to road interface.

Imagine braking on a sheet of ice. How quickly do you stop? As quick as the tire to road interface will let you. In this case, the ice is the interface, and it's slick. This same thing applies on wet roads... how fast can you stop on a wet road? You're limited by the tire to road interface. The water makes it slick. In fact, this same thing applies on ALL roads. On a dry road, the limiting factor becomes how grippy the tire is. In fact, how grippy the tires are is the limiting factor on ice and wet, too.

So why bother with "performance" brakes? It's all about heat saturation and dissipation. Brakes can only hold so much heat energy. More surface area and good cooling are necessary in a track environment where you are using them a lot.

But don't kid yourself... performance brakes are not going to improve your stopping distance. Better tires will, though.

 

[Clivew]

Except, they will.

Because that's how physics works.

This is a fallacious argument due to not understanding the subject matter. To make a proper counter argument, you need to detail valid technical points.

This is due to your imagination.

Once you reacht he limit of the tires- which the stock brakes can do exactly as fast as upgraded brakes, then MOAR BRAKES does not slow you any faster

A properly designed uprated brake kit will allow you to reach the limit of a tyres maximum grip in a faster time, and thus reduce total braking distance. I’ve tested this myself. Speak to any race car driver about one factor, pad knock-back, and how this can increase braking distance from initial pedal application. You’ll see many in-car videos where the driver will tap the brake pedal before a braking zone to prevent this happening.

It can't.

Again because that's how physics work

Absolutely no technical counter argument to the points I posted, yet again, just fallacious words.

Go read the essay it linked to.

it explains all this in detail- with math and everything.

Factually wrong- and debunked in the essay.

Nowhere in the essay did the author discuss the points that I am highlighting, because the essay is aimed at the layman like yourself, who won’t understand the deeper technical aspects. It is blatantly obvious by your replies, and lack of technical argument to each and every point I posted, that you don’t understand what I have written.

In interest of brevity I cut out your other claims- because again they're almost all specifically debunked as factually wrong in the essay.

Rubbish, it’s because you don't have a valid technical counter argument to those points.

Go read it.

Except, they do not.

Again- the essay goes through each element of a braking system- describing what they do and how, and why upgrading them can not reduce your stopping distance.

Same again, bit of a theme here.

And the author of the essay that says you're wrong has done so for actual car manufacturers.... and for Stoptech making BBKs.

And teaches SAE master classes on braking system design and funciton.

The problem is, you don’t fully understand what I have written, and what he has written, and so you have no valid technical counter argument to the points I made, and are just spouting fallacious statements.

He has literally written books on this topic

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DL3LTYK/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0

His resume seems better than yours.

You are the one who is making incorrect sweeping statements, and whom cannot make technical counter arguments to the points I made because you don’t fully understand the subject, so it’s your resume which is important here.

Also his math, facts, and physics.

Where are your own maths, physics and factual technical points, to enable a valid counter argument to the points I made?

But from a strict marketing point of view- if brake upgrades actually stopped you shorter than Stoptech, Brembo, and others would be screaming that fact from the mountains.

Another fallacious statement that doesn’t actually mean anything, and which isn’t a valid counter argument to anything I wrote.

Instead Brembos FAQ explicitly tells you they don't even measure normal highway stopping distance because their kits do not reduce it since it's determined by the tires.

Stoptech has numerous white papers saying the same thing.

Another statement by you that proves you do not understand any of the points I made.

You haven’t debunked any of my points with any technical argument. Telling me to read someone else’s info is not an argument.

This is the problem when a layman like yourself, who has very limited technical understanding and who reads simplistic info written by others for the layman, doesn’t fully understand a complex technical system. You then come onto forums and make incorrect sweeping statements.

A simple point here - If you think hydraulic rubber hose flex, and thus the volume increase on the pressure side of the circuit doesn’t delay the point of maximum pressure of a system, then you have absolutely no understanding of how a hydraulic system works. You seem to like stating ‘physics’. Well here is physics law - PV=k. k is a constant, and so if volume (V) increases, pressure (P) decreases.

An accumulator works in exactly the same way in an aircraft braking system, it reduces pressure fluctuations. ie it lowers the high pressure points and increases the low pressure points by increasing and decreasing the volume in the pressure side of the circuit.

Caliper flex and brake pad knock-back do exactly the same thing, increase the volume, and so increase the time taken to obtain max brake pressure.

Any delay in achieving maximum retardation of the wheel/tyre rotation to the point of maximum friction, increases total braking distance from the point of pedal application, to the car stopping.

 

[Knightshade]

This is a fallacious argument due to not understanding the subject matter. To make a proper counter argument, you need to detail valid technical points.

I already linked you to an essay that specifically debunked your claims.

Seems you still didn't read it.

A properly designed uprated brake kit will allow you to reach the limit of a tyres maximum grip in a faster time

Nope, sure won't.

If it did the major brake kit companies would claim that.

As I cited- they don't. Because it's not true.

In fact both Brembo and Stoptech tell you the same thing I am.

, and thus reduce total braking distance. I’ve tested this myself.

Great! Please post all your raw data and analysis.

Absolutely no technical counter argument to the points I posted, yet again, just fallacious words.

You haven't made any points.

You've made factually untrue claims that were already debunked by the essay by an actual expert you refuse to read.

Nowhere in the essay did the author discuss the points that I am highlighting

Except, he does.

Your very first claim for example was:

Reduced hose expansion of braided hoses compared to standard rubber, allowing a faster increase to maximum hydraulic pressure. A rubber brake hose allows more volume change before maximum pressure is achieved.

This is untrue, and he specifically debunks the idea upgrading your brake lines can do anything to stop you faster.

He spends several paragraphs on the topic of brake lines using rubber vs upgraded ones, concluding:

Although those cool-looking stainless steel brake lines alone will not make your car stop any faster, the decrease in compliance and improvement in pedal feel can make a driver much more confident.

So when you say "nowhere" in the essay did he discuss this- and he clearly did- you make it obvious you did not actually read it at all.

Rubbish, it’s because you don't have a valid technical counter argument to those points.



Same again, bit of a theme here.

Yes, your reply to sourced facts proving you wrong appears to be stomping and saying "nu uh!"

Plus a slew of ad hominem personal attacks- usually the last resort of those on whose side the facts do no reside.

Theme indeed

The problem is, you don’t fully understand what I have written,

I do- it's just factually wrong.

You haven’t debunked any of my points with any technical argument. Telling me to read someone else’s info is not an argument.

It is though.

I don't need to rederive the theory of general relativity either when I can just point to Einstiens work on it.


Your facts are wrong.

You have been provided with an essay written by an actual industry expert proving you're wrong.

You've proven now you did not even read it because you were caught claiming it didn't address any of your points, when it obviously does so.


Not a great look for you.

A simple point here - If you think hydraulic rubber hose flex, and thus the volume increase on the pressure side of the circuit doesn’t delay the point of maximum pressure of a system, then you have absolutely no understanding of how a hydraulic system works

Again- not only are you wrong- the essay you claimed didn't address this at all spends several paragraphs on the topic and directly contradicts your claims.


I'd again suggest you actually read it this time

 

[Knightshade]

Some additional info that might help educate you on this topic

At the speeds that stopping distance is generally measured from (60 to 70mph), the test is primarily testing the tire's grip on the pavement.

As delivered from the manufacturer, nearly all vehicles are able to engage the ABS or lock the wheels at these speeds. Therefore, an increase in braking power will do nothing to stop the vehicle in a shorter distance.

For this reason, we do not record stopping distances at this time.

(bold added)


Here's Stoptech/Centric- another company with huge financial interest in selling you BETTER brakes.

https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedi...epaper_A2-Brake-Bias-Performance_8-2018_1.pdf

“You can take this one to the bank. Regardless of your huge rotor diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tire to road interface. That is the point of this whole article.

Your brakes do not stop your car. Your tires do stop the car. So while changes to different parts of the brake system may affect certain characteristics or traits of the system behavior, using stickier tires is ultimately the only sure-fire method of decreasing stopping distances.”

So that's two of the largest upgraded brakes manufacturers both telling you you are wrong.

STILL don't believe em?

Here's Road and Track- surely they know something about cars, right?

How Changing Tires Can Improve Your Braking & Stopping Distances - How Tires Upgrade Your Braking System

I mean- the TITLE already tells you Why braking is all about tires

the article itself starts out like this:

If you want your car to stop faster, an intuitive start may be to upgrade your brakes. While it may sound logical, for everyday driving it will probably have no effect on your actual stopping distance.

You know- just like I already told you.

 

[Phlier]

How does the brake system work? Let's take an example of a guy rearing back, and smashing that brake pedal to the floor as hard as he can.

From that point, the computer says, "ahhh... I see the Boss wants to stop as quickly as possible." The computer then, using information from the rotation sensors, modulates the pressure at the brake pads extremely quickly. This brings the tires to "impending lockup," which is the point at which applying anymore pressure to the pads would result in the tire rotation stopping.

What determines the point at which the tire would lockup and stop turning? The road/tire interface. The better the tire can grip the road, the more stopping power (brake pressure) you can give it before it locks up. In a modern car, the weakest link is *always* the road/tire interface. Any modern brake you could put on a car is capable of providing enough force to lockup a tire during braking. The trick is to maintain the brake pressure at a point just below which the wheel locks up. ABS computers handle this wonderfully well.

The computer in the car will always give you the greatest deceleration power it can, given the current traction (tire/road interface) conditions. And it can do this with any modern brake.

It doesn't matter what brake you put on our cars, the computer will *always* bring the wheels to their maximum braking potential, which is determined... again... by the road/tire interface.

 

[kilpatds]

Clive is pointing out that better braking components influence the responsiveness of the system the computer is trying to control, and that influences the ability of the computer to achieve optimal braking performance... and thus given the same tires, better braking components can still lead to material improvements in braking performance.

And that doesn't even get into "does the computer actually have a panic-stop setup, or just ABS that still requires the driver to apply enough pressure to get to the threshhold" (an issue at high speed for marginal brakes)

 

[Knightshade]

Clive is pointing out that better braking components influence the responsiveness of the system the computer is trying to control, and that influences the ability of the computer to achieve optimal braking performance... and thus given the same tires, better braking components can still lead to material improvements in braking performance.

He's claiming that.

But failing to offer any evidence of it.

In contrast to 4 different sources now (including Brembo, Stoptech, Road and Track, and a guy who designs OEM car maker braking systems) all saying he's wrong.

And that doesn't even get into "does the computer actually have a panic-stop setup, or just ABS that still requires the driver to apply enough pressure to get to the threshhold" (an issue at high speed for marginal brakes)

I'm unaware of any OEM vehicle in at least 20 years where the stock brakes were so marginal a panic stop could not engage ABS by smashing the brake pedal.

Certainly not any Tesla has made.

Are you aware of such a vehicle?

 

[SummerlinChiro]

He's claiming that.

But failing to offer any evidence of it.

In contrast to 4 different sources now (including Brembo, Stoptech, Road and Track, and a guy who designs OEM car maker braking systems) all saying he's wrong.




I'm unaware of any OEM vehicle in at least 20 years where the stock brakes were so marginal a panic stop could not engage ABS by smashing the brake pedal.

Certainly not any Tesla has made.

Are you aware of such a vehicle?

I think the point you are missing is the initial ramp up time to get to full traction. With stiffer brake lines, calipers, (and firewall!) this occurs in a shorter time, which inevitably means a shorter stopping distance.

Let's say the stiffer system saves you .1 seconds. That is about 9 feet you save at 60 MPH.

 

[Knightshade]

I think the point you are missing is the initial ramp up time to get to full traction. With stiffer brake lines, calipers, (and firewall!) this occurs in a shorter time, which inevitably means a shorter stopping distance.

Except there's no evidence it does so.

No evidence that's there's any "delay" in "ramping" the braking force with a stock system at all.

So it's less a "point" than a "claim unsupported by any source or evidence"

And every actual source cited here- from multiple brake manufacturers, car magazines, and SAE masterclass teachers on brake systems, says that it does not change anything.

So there's that.


Again, if what's being claimed actually made a measurable difference in stopping distance, Bremo and Stoptech and everyone else would be putting that item #1 in their advertising.

Instead I've cited both of them saying their systems don't actually do that at all- because they're being honest about the physics involved.

They explain the numerous benefits you can get from brake upgrades (feel, fade resistance on a track, etc) and also the one you can't- stopping any shorter in the first place.

(contrast with some more fly by night brake parts sellers who make more...dubious...claims...)

 

[Uncle Paul]

OP is concerned about the way the brakes "felt" during his test drive. He was comparing it to two different high performance sedans, with perhaps some of the best brake feel in the business.

A standard Model 3 will not feel as confident as his BMW and Porsche examples. They are designed for the European performance buyer who will have access to unlimited speed Autobahn highways.

The Performance Model 3 brakes will feel much better than the standard 3, but not quiet as good as the German performance version offerings. (Of course those models cost much more as well).

Balancing it a bit will be the availability of regenerative braking on the Tesla. It will allow the fantastic one pedal driving experience that makes cutting through typical American traffic or cruising our many Mountain ranges a joy, unequaled by the gassers.

 

[Mash]

Brakes performance is almost never about panic stop distance.

It's about pedal resistance to travel, brake torque from pedal force and consistency of those 2 things in different situations. There are secondary things like feedback and longevity.

ABS engagement is not the shortest stopping distance and ability to be consistent with the torque defines the result. With ABS it's important to have shorter lag time, so rigidity of hydraulic lines have an influence. Stock cars sacrifice rigidity in favor of comfort and reliability, so they use rubber hose.

All those mentioned sources are correct, but inability to read and understand them is a dead end. Yes, there is a widespread myth about larger brakes stop faster. More often it's actually opposite. And those materials target those people.

 

[SK360]

We should just do real world testing instead of bench racing. Someone send me a big brake kit and I’ll find another P3D on PS4S to do some testing with

 

[bedoig]

We should just do real world testing instead of bench racing. Someone send me a big brake kit and I’ll find another P3D on PS4S to do some testing with

Send me the 20" wheels and PS4S and I'll be the baseline! I guess throw in the OE performance brake hardware too.

 

[Clivew]

Knightshade, the problem is, you haven’t read and understood what I have written. You are just falsely clinging to an article that doesn’t cover all aspects of the system in detail, because it is trying to make things simple for the layman. You are then confusing what is written in the article and what I have written, and that is plainly obvious by your replies.

Your quoting of the brake hose statement shows this. In regards to brake hose flex, I’m talking about the flex causing a small delay in achieving maximum brake pressure, and physics back this up, PV=k, and any delay in obtaining max pressure will lengthen stopping distance. You think I’m saying the flex will reduce ultimate maximum brake pressure. I’m not.

The article is looking at the braking system in simplistic terms to allow the layman to understand. The article does not discuss the nuances and more complex technical aspects of a braking system.

You talk about the tyres grip being the only factor which will change the braking distance.

Do you actually know how a tyre produces maximum grip, and what conditions it needs under braking to produce maximum friction? Do you know the tolerance in deceleration needed to hold the tyre at the point of maximum grip? How do you think that happens, using an anti-lock system, and without ABS?

Bosch developed a motorsport ABS, which has 12 different settings. If it’s just the tyre’s maximum grip that defines the braking distance, then you wouldn’t need an adjustable Bosch ABS which has 12 adjustments. I’ve driven a car with this system fitted, and braking distances change when you select a different ABS map. Everything else is the same, nothing else has changed, same tyres, same calipers, pads, but the braking distance has changed. With your simplistic view, this is impossible.

The reason it is possible is because the system is much more accurate in the way it controls the deceleration of the wheel/tyre under braking. It can cycle the deceleration of the wheel around the point of maximum grip of the tyre more accurately, and closer to the optimum slip ratio. The more accurately it can do this, the shorter the braking distance. The different settings allow optimum wheel deceleration when the grip levels change, due to different track temperature and different precipitation levels. The deceleration ‘maps’ are optimised for the changing ultimate grip, and thus allow better wheel slip control. (yes, a tyre produces maximum grip when it is sliding a certain amount across the tarmac)

The ABS can do this more accurately, and thus hold the tyre closer to its optimum slip ratio and thus maximum grip, if other factors of the braking system allow it to have that accuracy. These factors are less flex of the brake hoses, less flex of the brake caliper, a brake pad that has a constant co-efficient of friction over a large temperature range etc, etc.

Manufacturers spend a massive amount of money developing ultra stiff one piece ‘monoblock’ calipers for this very reason. If you can control hydraulic pressure more accurately, by reducing any uncontrolled volume increase in the pressure side of the hydraulic circuit, you can more accurately control the deceleration of the tyre, and hold it closer to the point of maximum grip.

On a car without ABS, these things are even more important, because the driver needs to be able to control as accurately as possible the wheel deceleration, so anything that improves that consistency will allow shorter braking distances.

I haven’t even gone into the many other details and other aspects that help reduce braking distances with a more optimised set-up, because I don’t want to overcomplicate the discussion.