-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Coronavirus
- Thread starter Wenche
- Start date
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
That is how the virus works, but your last bit of "could maybe have caused some bad side effects" is not supported by the data.
First, the spike protein is a foreign protein. That is what the vaccine is priming your immune system to see and react to.
The ACE2 receptor is expressed ubiquitously throughout the body, and is not targeted by the immune system. We try to down-regulate this receptor for other issues (blood pressure mostly), and have done this with drugs for decades now, so any drug that is used for this is well-known, the pharmacology (how the drug works) is well known, and for a virus to target a protein like ACE2 that is on virtually all cells is normal (it's how viruses involve to infect cells).
Basically, trying to block how a virus enters a cell is a hallmark of many anti-viral drugs. It's how we target the flu virus with antivirals, and using a similar approach for SARS-CoV-2 is appropriate. You need to bear in mind that you can BLOCK a receptor and prevent virus entry without ACTIVATING the receptor. Very key distinction.
Yet another helpful new research pre-print looking at how today’s vaccines and synthetic antibody treatments are handling the newer virus variants.
Lilly’s monoclonal antibody doesn’t work well on the South African (and likely the Brazilian) variants. Likewise, one of the two monoclonal antibodies in the Regeneron cocktail is also knocked-out but the other one still seems to work.
The effectiveness of today’s vaccines is predicted consistent with the Novavax results presented yesterday.
New Study of Coronavirus Variants Predicts Virus Evolving to Escape Current Vaccines, Treatments
Increased Resistance of SARS-CoV-2 Variants B.1.351 and B.1.1.7 to Antibody Neutralization
Lilly’s monoclonal antibody doesn’t work well on the South African (and likely the Brazilian) variants. Likewise, one of the two monoclonal antibodies in the Regeneron cocktail is also knocked-out but the other one still seems to work.
The effectiveness of today’s vaccines is predicted consistent with the Novavax results presented yesterday.
New Study of Coronavirus Variants Predicts Virus Evolving to Escape Current Vaccines, Treatments
Increased Resistance of SARS-CoV-2 Variants B.1.351 and B.1.1.7 to Antibody Neutralization
Zhelko Dimic
Careful bull
I live in Canada.
And you're wrong.
I've walked in many times for myself or my kids and have been seen at the spot.
What you have as a system is a travesty that someone convinced you long time ago is a good idea, and now that system provides too many jobs to get rid of it. These jobs(*) don't exist in other countries, and system is way simpler and cheaper for it, but unravelling it and redeployment of the people is the problem. And all these for profit segments provide strong lobbying efforts that have been collectively brainwashing Americans for decades and have politicized this point so much that even smart people can't see simple truths.
Now, I've seen and lived completely socialized medicine in a communist country, and that's a disaster (most of the time); though it's hard to make sure it's the health delivery model that's the core problem, and not lack of funds, general apathy and rampant bribery and bureaucracy. It is likely though that model plays a part in it...
But Canada and other developed nations are not using those models anyhow.
*insurance, billing, negotiating, collecting,...
Thanks... The analogy of the keyhole in the cells and the spike protein being the key threw me off before. I had then assumed that our body must use that "keyhole" for other non-foreign purposes, but really its isn't a keyhole at all. It is more like a crack in the wall that something managed to squeeze through.
The oversimplified diagrams make it out like a purpose built receptor just waiting for that spike protein to attach. I am now less thinking of it like COVID finding a key that fit the lock, and more like COVID found that there was a gap under the doorway that it could slip through. We could either seal the crack or put out an APB for anything roaming around with a package delivery system designed to slip something through the crack/gap.
I guess my analogy is over-simplified as it isn't like there is a big crack just sitting there. COVID had to evolve something complicated to get through the cell wall maze...
Last edited:
Here’s a question for you medical guys. Can/should you consume grapefruit around the time you’ll get the vaccine? If so what kind of leeway before/after? Our family loves ruby red grapefruit for breakfast occasionally and I know grapefruit can affect taking certain medications, blood absorption or something like that? Never thought about vaccines before.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
We’ll have to get an additional 3rd shot in the fall.
I’ve not posted here in a long while - was hoping this vaccine is the light at the end of the tunnel. Not so sure anymore. New variants, vaccine hesitancy probably means we won’t get to herd immunity anytime soon.
In WA the vaccine booking system is so broken, I can’t find an appointment - even in March!
It's too early to tell, but the Brazilian variant might be a game changer. Some early reports say it's evolved to fool antibodies. It's like it had a meeting with HIV and learned some tricks. If true it's going to be hard to vaccinate against.
Washington is scrambling to catch up after being shorted in the first weeks of rollout. 14 states reported getting less than promised. Though i think most of the problems with supply have been settled at this point. In WA I think how well the program is going depends on the county. I read one WA county is leading the country in vaccine distribution, and I think Clark Co is doing OK, but King Co may be struggling. We don't hear that much news about King Co down here.
SmartElectric
Active Member
You seem so sure of this, and yet it's a complete lie and you are deluded, Canada single payer model works amazingly well, is cheaper by far compared to the US model judging by the massive set of studies on this available for review.
As a Canadian, I have never been denied, rationed or limited in my health care, nor my family, their treatments for cancer, broken bones, COVID or anything else. I absolutely can walk into a clinic with any issue and get seen, and yes, it's in priority order, if I am much worse off, they see me first.
I have a brother living in the US, he has paid tens of thousands out of pocket even though he is employed as an IT manager in a big company with supposedly excellent benefits. His opinion is that US health care is not as good as Canada in terms of results WRT born costs, and that's a direct judgement of someone experienced with both systems for >20 years each.
This was our experience as well. No doubt there are some isolated cases and areas where there is an issue---nothing works perfectly, but compared to the broken U.S. healthcare system it's at least 1000 times better. No one goes broke. You can choose your doctor and switch anytime. You never have to fight with the insurance company. The list goes on. Basically it depends on whether you believe healthcare is a basic human right similar to clean water (which some CEOs say is not a basic human right) or that only the rich should have healthcare. The only issue that I've seen is that sometimes politicians will say "vote for me and I will build a hospital in your town" when there's already adequate hospital coverage in the next town (hospital in this sense is usually a building that has twenty or so beds).
EVNow
Well-Known Member
According to Trevor the variants we are seeing are convergent - so from vaccine perspective not worrying.
https://twitter.com/i/events/1355227870323474438?s=21
I believe it's going to be important keeping tabs on virus evolution and bringing forward modified vaccines and boosters to match this evolution. But that said, there is substantial convergent evolution happening... 1/2
with B.1.351 (501Y.V2) variant in South Africa and P.1 (501Y.V3) variant in Brazil mutating overlapping sites in the viral genome. Currently, there is not a variety of variants to worry about from a vaccine perspective. 2/2
EVNow
Well-Known Member
This is the big issue. In the US people have been brainwashed into thinking somehow the single payer healthcare countries are worse off. They have not bothered to even check with our direct neighbors to the north who speak the same language. Only in international fora the lies get exposed but the cognitive dissonance is too strong to overcome.
HG Wells
Martian Embassy
BUT. BUT, BUT they are foreigners ! You can't trust them ! /S
The US system is just way too complicated for the average person.
Take an annual physical appointment for example.
If you ask the physician the wrong questions during the appointment, the physician is presented choices on the EHR system to check different things that make it unrelated to a simple physical. Then the appointment is coded differently. The doctors time is billed more and any tests ordered, even if it’s just the routine tests, are charged higher.
The patient later sees an unexpected bill but has zero understanding why because they just assumed the visit was a routine annual physical appointment.
Even a simple CBC test can consist of a handful of different charges associated with it if you take a look at the bill, including a “handling charge.” And the cost can be different depending on what circumstance the test was ordered by a medical provider.
Take an ENT appointment for another example. A patient goes in concerned about a sore throat. The doctor looks inside, but says he’ll want to take a look further using a scope. Little does the average patient know that simple scope procedure will be billed for hundreds of dollars ($500+ in many instances). Would any regular Joe know to ask whether that will cost extra? There’s definitely no time in that brief appointment to figure out how much it will cost exactly.
Take an annual physical appointment for example.
If you ask the physician the wrong questions during the appointment, the physician is presented choices on the EHR system to check different things that make it unrelated to a simple physical. Then the appointment is coded differently. The doctors time is billed more and any tests ordered, even if it’s just the routine tests, are charged higher.
The patient later sees an unexpected bill but has zero understanding why because they just assumed the visit was a routine annual physical appointment.
Even a simple CBC test can consist of a handful of different charges associated with it if you take a look at the bill, including a “handling charge.” And the cost can be different depending on what circumstance the test was ordered by a medical provider.
Take an ENT appointment for another example. A patient goes in concerned about a sore throat. The doctor looks inside, but says he’ll want to take a look further using a scope. Little does the average patient know that simple scope procedure will be billed for hundreds of dollars ($500+ in many instances). Would any regular Joe know to ask whether that will cost extra? There’s definitely no time in that brief appointment to figure out how much it will cost exactly.
I get a kick out of the US perception of Canadian medical. We own property in the states. No matter what you tell them they think you wait for months to see a doctor. To funny. We live in a small typical bc town. Maybe 75000 people. There are three walk in clinics. I can walk in anytime without an appointment and see a doctor for anything. Anywhere from 30 minutes to two hours wait. They can refer to a specialist or treat right there. If it’s after hours just go to the hospital. The Bill is always the same for any visit, any tests and any treatment or surgery. ZERO BUCKS. I’m happy to pay the extra tax so every one of my fellow citizens can do the same. Socialism works for me. 
.
Whenever we have somebody move into our neighbourhood in the US I always say
“Hi, my name is John. I’m your new socialist neighbour”. And the look of fear comes into their eye as they go look for their pitchforks..
.Whenever we have somebody move into our neighbourhood in the US I always say
“Hi, my name is John. I’m your new socialist neighbour”. And the look of fear comes into their eye as they go look for their pitchforks.
.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I am also in the Seattle area, and have experienced the frustration in working through the WA State website. However I had also signed up for the Virginia Mason "notify me when an opening is available" waitlist. For those outside this area Virginia Mason is a large Hospital and medical services provider here locally. It was kind of frustrating not being able to check status, the only information was on their website saying that they are overwhelmed with demand. Yesterday I got a notification that I was eligible to sign up for an appointment. I interacted with some very slick software that someone at VM or Amazon has put together on very short notice and have an appointment tomorrow at the Amazon/VM super vaccination site where I have to show a QR code to even get in. It is very frustrating to keep checking for appointment availability, the waitlist idea works well even though you are in the dark about where you are in the line.
Nope, many viruses including Coronaviruses really do follow the key and the keyhole analogy — the keyhole being an ACE2 enzyme on the surface of many types of cells in your body. That receptor is indeed normally intended for human biological purposes.
Angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 - Wikipedia
The image in your post is showing endocytosis which is one of several ways that various things can be brought inside of a cell through its membrane. This mechanism is used for normal cell functioning but the virus hijacks normal endocytosis in order to get inside. In order to begin endocytosis, one of the spike proteins (the keys in this analogy) that stud the outside of the virus physically attaches itself to an ACE2 (the keyhole) on the surface of the cell by randomly bumping into it and thus triggers the endocytosis to begin.
This is a great overall explanation video on COVID-19. It came out early so it’s slightly dated but still basically accurate.
They have a few other videos on vaccines and the immune system along with other science topics. Generally good and clearly explained content.
Here is their biology playlist:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFs4vir_WsTyY31efyHdmtp9l7DpR0Wvi
This is an excellent closeup animation of the virus and the spike-to-ACE2 attachment process:
HIV is not a good comparison because it’s a very different kind of virus that evades the immune system in very different ways.
SARS-CoV-2 is actually turning out to be a relatively easy virus to vaccinate against. It’s just that it has evolved some changes to its spike protein that cause antibodies formed against the original virus to no longer function well on some mutated variants found commonly now in South Africa and parts of Brazil (and probably will be common in the next few months in the USA and elsewhere).
The current vaccines trigger multiple different immune protections against the virus. While some of the most important virus-specific antibodies don’t work as well on the new variants, the other aspects of immunity triggered by the current vaccines such as t-cell immunity probably still work well and will likely still protect you against severe disease. The original virus antibodies against the new (non-UK) variants will still keep you from having mild or moderate symptomatic disease around ~60% of the time rather than 95% of the time as they do with the original virus. Efficacy against the UK variant seems to be around 85-90%.
It’s looking like the virus-makers will be coming up with updated vaccines for later this year that will provide strong protection against both the original and the new variants. People who get the current vaccines now will likely get another newly updated booster shot in the fall.
Last edited:
Similar threads
