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I couldn't find any other data either.

In general I'd have guessed that vaccines like Pfizer would actually be less effective against mutations than the old dead virus vaccines, which result in a broad range of anti-bodies. Thats why I'm skeptical about Pfizer saying their vaccine is (almost) equally effective against new mutations (while Moderna says they are readying a new booster). Their reluctance to test and publish studies on actual viruses is just adding to the skepticism esp. given the results by J&J in S Africa.

That’s a bit pessimistic. I think it shows we will need a booster shot this fall that is based on the spike protein from the Brazilian/South African variants.

Maybe the virus will continue to mutate with similarly effective antibody escape changes after that but we don’t actually know yet. At worst, we might seem to need an annually booster shot at the same time as people get their flu shots.
What do you think will happen in between the annual booster shots ?

ps : Ofcourse it might all turn out to be fine - and by fall the world has completely eliminated Covid. But the other side is equally likely - international travel to visit my parents becomes very difficult and risky.
 
That’s a bit pessimistic. I think it shows we will need a booster shot this fall that is based on the spike protein from the Brazilian/South African variants.

Maybe the virus will continue to mutate with similarly effective antibody escape changes after that but we don’t actually know yet. At worst, we might seem to need an annually booster shot at the same time as people get their flu shots.

I can totally understand pessimism. The trajectory of mutation (which seems to be arguably faster than influenza in the spike protein, over a short time scale) seems very frightening. But as discussed, the possibility of rapid evolution to a local optimum is quite possible.

There's a lot we don't know about some variants (like P.1), and we don't have the clinical results we'd like to see on all the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines. So lots of unknowns.

That being said, there's a lot of optimism to be had with some of the results. It's just that there are scary unknowns as well.

I take the view that the vaccines are so good right now that they will likely only help, and that will probably remain the case for at least several months. And the preliminary hospitalization data is so encouraging. If only we had more of the vaccines!

In general I'd have guessed that vaccines like Pfizer would actually be less effective against mutations than the old dead virus vaccines, which result in a broad range of anti-bodies.

I'm not sure that immunologists agree, tbh. I don't understand immunology, but there seems to be a lot of optimism about the promise of mRNA vaccines, and some of the other novel delivery methods. It seems that one reason (maybe??? Not an immunologist!) is that presenting antigens on the surface of your own cells tends to result in a quite strong immune response.

Note also that there IS a broad range of anti-bodies generated by this vaccine - all over the spike, some in areas not changed by the current variants - and the spike is the part that is key to viral function. Some of these antibodies are used for direct interference with binding, and some are used for priming the killer T cell response, from what I understand. I suppose you could think of other delivery methods as creating a diffuse response where the immune system has to create a bunch of useless antibodies that don't actually interfere with viral function (again, not an immunologist, just speculation).

Their reluctance to test and publish studies on actual viruses is just adding to the skepticism esp. given the results by J&J in S Africa.

I think it's more likely that they haven't had enough time to produce results yet. A trial where there are minimal infections takes some time, especially if you have to find a place with high prevalence of the South African strain.
 
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Putting nefarious virus-makers aside, this crisis was a good jumpstart for the mRNA vaccine makers to build out mass production.

Imagine if the cost comes down to be comparable to flu vaccine production. Not only would it be a great boon to flu vaccine effectiveness (in good years where they predict correctly), this production capacity also means that new viruses like a hypothetical SARS3 could be knocked down far more quickly.

It’s not often mentioned, but Moderna is actively developing mRNA vaccines for a wide range of viruses:

Research Pipeline: MMA, CMV, Zika & Rare Diseases - Moderna
 
The trajectory of mutation (which seems to be arguably faster than influenza in the spike protein, over a short time scale) seems very frightening. But as discussed, the possibility of rapid evolution to a local optimum is quite possible.

Something to keep in mind is that there is no evidence yet that SARS-CoV-2 has been widely hosted in humans until a year ago.

These recent variant mutations may just be early improved adaptations to human biology that will not necessarily continue at the same pace going forward year after year.
 
Something to keep in mind is that there is no evidence yet that SARS-CoV-2 has been widely hosted in humans until a year ago.

These recent variant mutations may just be early improved adaptations to human biology that will not necessarily continue at the same pace going forward year after year.

Exactly. Personally, I happen to be more optimistic about things and that's what I think it happening - I suspect we'll see minimal shifts from here if we get this thing under control in the next few months. But, we'll see what happens. And there are possibilities for homologous substitutions if we get unlucky, it sounds like.

Still waiting on those P.1/P.2 neutralization results! Hopefully ends up very similar to the South African results, but we will see.
 
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There is an independent pathway for cells without TMPRSS2 (like kidney cells) in which the endocytosis triggered by the spike connecting to the ACE2 receptor needs to result in a completed endocytosis. In that pathway, the virion is fully engulfed through the outer membrane into the cytoplasm inside the cell and then the virion rides an internal highway built out of protein (microtubule) and is dragged further into the cell by a little protein motor (seriously). As the virion is dragged further into the cell, a proton pump mechanism causes the PH to be lowered (become more acidic) and this change triggers an enzyme called “cysteine protease cathepsin L” to take over the function of TMPRSS2 and make a cut to the spike protein which triggers the release of the virion’s RNA.
There is more than one “highway” and “protein motor” mechanism inside cells so I might have those details slightly wrong but it’s the right general idea. Probably, the engulfed virion is dragged into the cell using a dynein motor similar to this computer graphic simulation of a kinesin motor:

WTF, OMG! OK, I am done trying to understand anymore... Nature is too clever for me.
 
There are a lot of teachers in this country.......but not THAT many.

Some of the more ornery parents and the teacher's unions are getting into it pretty good over when to reopen. How did we not jab all these teachers and staff already?

My brother is front line medical and double stabbed weeks ago. Girlfriend and sister are teachers and won't get their 2nd shots til next week. The bizarre thing is that neither of their schools(or any centralized state/county/school district body) coordinated their vaccinations. If they hadn't taken semi-shady measures on their own, neither would likely even have their first shot today. Other teachers are seeing they got a first shot and asking them how.

WFT is wrong with the US as a logistics managing entity? Is this purely because the orange fellow was running things for the first 10 months of the pandemic? How do school districts not get given the authority to round up and vaccinate all their staff in an orderly and expeditious manner?

This is in PA, both urban and suburban. Anyone seeing similar chaos with other school districts?
 
With regard to the discussion(s) about new variants and titers of neutralizing antibodies, I think it's important to remember not to get too hung up on the antibody response and titers, because there is another important component of the immune response which is less easily quantified but nevertheless likely quite important when it comes to having a robust protection; the cell mediated immune response, which the Th1-CD4+ T-helper cells are mediating. Both Moderna's and Pfizer's mRNA vaccine seem to create a good balance Th1 + Th2 response. Some other vaccines (looking at you Novavax, and perhaps also J&J) may give a more Th2-weighted response that may look good when it comes to measuring antibody titers but may not be as optimal when it comes to actual real world protection and disease prevention. Too much Th2 response and too little Th1 response may even give rise to antibody-dependent enhancement - as we know historically from other vaccines. So let's not get too hung up on the antibody assays - after all it is a surrogate variable, the real outcome is disease prevention and secondarily prevention of transmission.
 
So let's not get too hung up on the antibody assays - after all it is a surrogate variable, the real outcome is disease prevention and secondarily prevention of transmission.
Yes - what we need are good clinical trials.

In general looks like Pfizer/Moderna chose fast trials over good ones. They didn't test for any variation between doses, didn't swab all the people once a week etc. So, we lack key information that they should have found out in the trials.
 
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Yes - what we need are good clinical trials.
In general looks like Pfizer/Moderna chose fast trials over good ones. They didn't test for any variation between doses, didn't swab all the people once a week etc. So, we lack key information that they should have found out in the trials.

Well now we have millions of people in extended "trials" !
Hopefully all those healthcare workers are keeping good notes.
 
WFT is wrong with the US as a logistics managing entity? Is this purely because the orange fellow was running things for the first 10 months of the pandemic?
Not just the orange fellow, but also every politician who supported his worldview. They know it hits the lower income sectors the worst, so they're working on removing poverty by removing the less fortunate. This mess was planned. (And if they can also eliminate the teachers they can get rid of the public school system as a bonus.)
 
Well now we have millions of people in extended "trials" !
Hopefully all those healthcare workers are keeping good notes.
Hardly any differences between doses - and won't know if anyone got asymptomatic Covid.

Compared to the Oxford/Zeneca trial, looks like Pfizer study was designed for speed - with minimal information that would be needed to get emergency authorization.

Don't get me wrong - I'd rather get the mRNA vaccine than the AstraZeneca given the efficacy - but disappointed they didn't collect crucial information.
 
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Hardly any differences between doses - and won't know if anyone got asymptomatic Covid.

Compared to the Oxford/Zeneca trial, looks like Pfizer study was designed for speed - with minimal information that would be needed to get emergency authorization.

Don't get me wrong - I'd rather get the mRNA vaccine than the AstraZeneca given the efficacy - but disappointed they didn't collect crucial information.

Clearly written by someone with no idea how to design, run, or interpret a clinical trial.

EDIT - instead of posting this BS, why don't you at least google something first? Moderna had three doses that was tested in their trial. It actually was a properly designed, executed, and managed clinical trial that involved many outside viewers so that it would be above the kind of approach you are trying to bring here.

EDIT2 - the ONLY reason Moderna and Pfizer finished earlier is because their vaccine development was completed much quicker, due to the inherent design pipeline of mRNA technology. Traditional vaccines simply take longer to design, period.
 
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Clearly written by someone with no idea how to design, run, or interpret a clinical trial.
Duh .. not my job. I can only compare what Astra did.

I wrote about two 2 items that AstraZeneca tested that are useful but Pfizer didn’t. Why didn’t they swab everyone weekly or test different period between shots ? Would have been invaluable information for public health.
 
Putting nefarious virus-makers aside, this crisis was a good jumpstart for the mRNA vaccine makers to build out mass production.

Imagine if the cost comes down to be comparable to flu vaccine production. Not only would it be a great boon to flu vaccine effectiveness (in good years where they predict correctly), this production capacity also means that new viruses like a hypothetical SARS3 could be knocked down far more quickly.

There is also a good chance that mRNA can be applied to a wide range of diseases that are not infectious. Much money to be made.
 
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Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 10.09.33 AM.png

From Bergstrom:
These mRNA vaccines are awesome! A single dose of mRNA layered on top of a SARS-CoV-2 wild-type infection (presumed wild-type) provides way better protection against B.1.351 (South African), wild type, and SARS-1 (pseudoviruses) than the natural infection itself does.

Antibodies elicited by SARS-CoV-2 infection and boosted by vaccination neutralize an emerging variant and SARS-CoV-1

Doesn’t seem like South African variant will have a chance against these vaccines (of course these neutralization studies are just a correlate). It’s going to have to come at us with something else...

Here are things it might try:
https://twitter.com/jbloom_lab/status/1359136446850867211?s=21

Note there's a lot of variation from person to person in the effect of a given mutation...

Here's a blog post from the NIH director discussing this paper:

Mapping Which Coronavirus Variants Will Resist Antibody Treatments
 
The most important legacy of the NFL season may have nothing to do with football

"Late last month, the CDC released a study it jointly co-authored with several of the NFL's leading medical experts based on a trove of data gathered from players and personnel over the first three months of the season. The news got buried under the avalanche of Super Bowl-related headlines. But it contained several eye-opening revelations.
One was how close things came to completely spiraling out of control in early October. Outbreaks were cropping up on half a dozen teams, multiplying rapidly, and testing the league's established COVID protocols.
...
The league's definition of "exposure" matched that of the world's foremost disease specialists: being within six feet of an infected person for more than 15 minutes. If that was the case, the exposed person had to quarantine, whether it was an assistant strength coach or Tom Brady.
What was unique relative to most office settings is the NFL didn't have to rely on contact tracing the hard way. Thanks to a deal with a company called Kinexon, it required all players and personnel to wear a smart sensor that tracked their location data while they were at a team facility.
...
That was the second big revelation of the study. The data revealed there were at least seven instances of likely transmission between persons who had zero interactions exceeding 15 minutes from within 6 feet of another person with COVID-19. There were multiple other instances of transmission occurring during especially brief (less than five minutes) unmasked interactions in small meeting rooms or eating in the cafeteria.
..."
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Link to the study:
Implementation and Evolution of Mitigation ...
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The gist seems to be that you can get and keep it under control with mask wearing and test / trace / quarantine.
If only we'd have known earlier.