Conservatives have given us many economic freedoms: The freedom to purchase legislators, the freedom of corporations to donate to political campaigns, the freedom to bust unions, the freedom to become a billionaire, the freedom to utilize tax loopholes (if you are rich enough) and pay little or no tax, the freedom to hire the best attorneys you can afford if you're charged with a crime, so that, if you have enough money, you'll never go to jail. Effectively, the right to have everything and anything you can pay for.
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Coronavirus
- Thread starter Wenche
- Start date
Conservatives have given us many economic freedoms: The freedom to purchase legislators, the freedom of corporations to donate to political campaigns, the freedom to bust unions, the freedom to become a billionaire, the freedom to utilize tax loopholes (if you are rich enough) and pay little or no tax, the freedom to hire the best attorneys you can afford if you're charged with a crime, so that, if you have enough money, you'll never go to jail. Effectively, the right to have everything and anything you can pay for.
Norbert
TSLA will win
That chart makes it look like the distinction Freedom vs Regulation is like a "zero sum game". However, even though switching from fossil fuel to renewable energy may involve regulations or government guidance, I think the long-term effect is more freedom, as cars can now use a variety of energy sources.
In a similar way, regulations against anti-competitive behavior, preventing monopolies or excessive forms of lobbyism, may all protect freedom.
Freedom isn't the absence of specific regulations or specific government guidance. Occasionally, political freedom may be its own worst enemy.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
The mods have repeatedly said this thread is not moderated. Be thankful of that rare circumstance.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I don't think I've ever voted for any Republican. There are inherent philosophical differences which I can't ignore. Someone comfortable aligning themselves with the conservative right is not someone I'd be able to support.
Association Between K–12 School Mask Policies and School-Associated COVID-19 Outbreaks — Maricopa and Pima Counties, Arizona, July–August 2021
"In the crude analysis, the odds of a school-associated COVID-19 outbreak in schools with no mask requirement were 3.7 times higher than those in schools with an early mask requirement (odds ratio [OR] = 3.7; 95% CI = 2.2–6.5). After adjusting for potential described confounders, the odds of a school-associated COVID-19 outbreak in schools without a mask requirement were 3.5 times higher than those in schools with an early mask requirement (OR = 3.5; 95% CI = 1.8–6.9)."
uujjj2
Member
SeekingAlpha, the "investing" web site all Tesla fans love to hate, has gone from promoting TSLA shorts to being overrun with anti-vaxxers. Any SeekingAlpha post mentioning anything COVID related gets spammed with dozens of anti-vax pro-ivermectin posts. And a lot of the loud anti-vaxxers are the same loud Tesla bashers from a couple years ago.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
No surprise, denying reality is part of who they are.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
There is a cottage industry. There is money to be made by the leaders of the cult ...
What blows my mind is that there is a medical doctor (the son of my mom's friend) who actual CHOSE to NOT get vaccinated (and his wife too)!! I don't know the complete reason, since it's through my mom, but as a medical professional, who sees patients (mostly seniors), it's just completely irresponsible NOT to be vaccinated!
Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I just had to vent at the utter stupidity of this blow-hard! I'm pretty sure this is a case of some sort of god-complex.
ARGGGGGHHHHH!!
p.s. congrats bkp_duke, you're no longer the most infuriating doctor I've ever met!
Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I just had to vent at the utter stupidity of this blow-hard! I'm pretty sure this is a case of some sort of god-complex.
ARGGGGGHHHHH!!
p.s. congrats bkp_duke, you're no longer the most infuriating doctor I've ever met!
There is a saying among lawyers:
If the facts are on your side, pound the facts
If the law is on your side, pound the law
If neither are on your side, pound the table
Most of the time bullying behavior is coming from people with little constructive to contribute.
At my wife's hospital one of the CT surgeons was terminated because he flat-out refuses the vaccination. She said he's in his 60's and has a younger wife and young children. My wife is upset because he is a good surgeon and he must have been vaccinated before. To be employed at the hospital you have to have been vaccinated at least for TB. She just can't understand how someone with his education and background can refuse something as simple as a vaccination. Though they are letting him stay until December so they can find a replacement. So it does happen. She has no idea why he is doing this. She says there are lots of nurses who say they are refusing as well but the cutoff date is in November and she thinks by then most will be vaccinated since all the area hospitals are requiring it.
Edit: Add: I've known a lot of doctors. @bkp_duke is very passionate about his political views but he is someone who can be talked to and will hear you out before he blasts you. I've known some doctors who their words were sacrosanct and they could not deal with anyone who questioned them at all, even by other doctors. The God complex was more of a standard thing 30+ years ago when there were still doctors who expected any nurses to stand up when they walked into a room and that they were the only ones who knew what was best for all patients. Having to watch cancer patients die in agony because their attending didn't want them to get hooked on narcotics was itself agonizing. Now a days training of doctors is very different and the younger ones tend to be more open to suggestions. Most of the God complex ones have died out or retired. Not all but most.
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bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
He's in a TINY sliver of the minority. Last stats I heard were 97-98% of all physicians are fully vaccinated.
Like I said previously, I still believe in personal freedom for vaccination, but healthcare workers are one of the exceptions I support where they should be required, or not work in patient care (have a desk job, fine).
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
The few I've talked to with this stance (and it has been VERY few) refused on basically libertarian principle grounds. I.e. "you will not tell me what to do come hell or high water".
I have yet to hear a coherent argument from any of them aside from that one. At least not one that I could not tear apart in under 60 seconds.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
No cure for stupid, this is just plain stubbornness:
www.insider.com
A New York healthcare worker who was just fired for refusing the COVID-19 shot says she wouldn't get it even if God said 'you must take this vaccine'
"God could come down and say to me, 'You must take this vaccine.' And I'd be like, 'Sorry, Charlie,'" said Karen Roses, who was fired after New York's mandate went into effect.
www.insider.com
Pre-print study comparing 4 main vaccines for antibody response and variants from September 2021.
Four SARS-CoV-2 vaccines induce quantitatively different antibody responses against SARS-CoV-2 variants
Four SARS-CoV-2 vaccines induce quantitatively different antibody responses against SARS-CoV-2 variants
Abstract
Emerging and future SARS-CoV-2 variants may jeopardize the effectiveness of vaccination campaigns. We performed a head-to-head comparison of the ability of sera from individuals vaccinated with either one of four vaccines (BNT162b2, mRNA-1273, AZD1222 or Ad26.COV2.S) to recognize and neutralize the four SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern (VOCs; Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Delta). Four weeks after completing the vaccination series, SARS-CoV-2 wild-type neutralizing antibody titers were highest in recipients of BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 (median titers of 1891 and 3061, respectively), and substantially lower in those vaccinated with the adenovirus vector-based vaccines AZD1222 and Ad26.COV2.S (median titers of 241 and 119, respectively). VOCs neutralization was reduced in all vaccine groups, with the largest (5.8-fold) reduction in neutralization being observed against the Beta variant. Overall, the mRNA vaccines appear superior to adenovirus vector-based vaccines in inducing neutralizing antibodies against VOCs four weeks after the final vaccination.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
New Zealand has finally given up! Probably good. Hopefully they can get to the top tier of countries in vaccinations soon, though it looks like it will be problematic for some communities.
Probably the right call though. Delta too difficult. Sounds like the main issue is the virus got into marginalized communities.
We will see a relatively massive explosion in the number of cases there, now, though at least they are headed into summer.
They will need a bit more vaccination to keep deaths low, though.
Probably the right call though. Delta too difficult. Sounds like the main issue is the virus got into marginalized communities.
We will see a relatively massive explosion in the number of cases there, now, though at least they are headed into summer.
They will need a bit more vaccination to keep deaths low, though.
I don't believe personal "freedoms" should place other people in hams way. Can I go to the bar get drunk and drive home? Can I race my Tesla or new C8 on the streets? As an employer can I maintain an unsafe work environment? As a member of "society" we have a social compact that sometimes our "personal" freedom has to give way for the common good. The science tells us that we need virtually everyone to get vaccinated. My wife who is fully vaccinated got COVID. Good news she did not end up in the hospital. But she lost her smell and taste and was unwell for over a week. In all probability she got it from an unvaccinated person. If people do not want to live in a civilized society and take some of the "burdens" along with all of the benefits, they should not be allowed to fully participate. NO planes, trains, concerts, restaurants, sporting events, schools - ANYTHING that they will be in contact with people. Where would we be today if 60 years ago we had these ignorant/arrogant people freely choosing not to be vaccinated? Polio, smallpox anyone?
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
As evidenced by your wife, she didn't get hospitalized or die. I'm truly happy to hear that, and I firmly believe you and she can thank the scientists behind the vaccines for that outcome. The science behind these vaccines is truly remarkable, especially the mRNA vaccines.
What everyone needs to understand is that these vaccines, and vaccines in general, are NOT designed to completely prevent the spread of a virus. They do reduce the spread, but their primary design function is to greatly reduce M+M as we call it (morbidity and mortality - i.e. sickness requiring hospitalization and possibly death).
The data shows that the risk to those that are vaccinated is VERY VERY low (in terms of death and hospitalization). And those at risk of that that are vaccinated would all fall under the group that are eligible right now for a booster shot, allowing those individuals to FURTHER reduce their risk. No one ever guaranteed zero risk. You will never find a zero risk guarantee any anything you do.
To put this in perspective, the death and hospitalization rates for vaccinated individuals are at or below seasonal influenza.
There is also a good argument to be made the those that have survived COVID should be allowed to count their natural immunity in place of a vaccine. Right now, NO ONE is even considering that with the mandates that are being thrown around. That does not, at all, follow the science and instead is clearly indicative of a political agenda.
Both "sides" of this argument want to cherry pick their datasets to support their view, without actually entering into a reasonable dialog on the subject.
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