Coronavirus

[Doggydogworld]

So the study's purported finding that HCQ was no better than the "conventional treatment" could mean that both the controls and HCQ are effective. (Although given the other weaknesses of the study I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from this).

Methods: We prospectively enrolled 30 treatment-naïve patients with confirmed COVID-19 after informed consent at Shanghai Public Health Clinical Center. The patients were randomized 1:1 to HCQ group and the control group. Patients in HCQ group were given HCQ 400mg per day for 5 days plus conventional treatments, while those in the control group were given conventional treatment only.

Contrary to your claims, HCQ was the only difference between the two groups. It's a small study, but HCQ+conventional did slightly worse than conventional alone. They didn't study HCQ alone vs. no treatment for ethical reasons.

You didn't like the results, so you trashed the study without even bothering to read the Abstract.

 

[PeterJA]

Well, if you tweet it to Real Donald, I'm sure he will pick it up in no time. / snark

Snark is not a substitute for facts and logic.

 

[bkp_duke]

. . . just as vaccinations are inherently probabilistic.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but want to point out that this statement is not correct. Almost all vaccinations we have and use routinely today are highly efficacious, have minimal side effects, and are proven to save lives and diminish the economic impact of a sickness.

They are truly one of man's greatest achievements over the past 100 years.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This link does not say quarantine is permanent for the people already recovered from Coronavirus, as I'm sure you know.

What are we even talking about? Obviously, in the more likely than not event that you recover from coronavirus, you are immune, at least for a reasonably long period of time. This is not surprising information. That's what a functioning immune system does. You'll be fine as long as you're not dead and you don't suffer permanent lung damage.

 

[PeterJA]

...You can catch a cold from the same cold virus year after year....

I don't think that's true, because cold viruses (coronaviruses) mutate every year. But I don't have time to provide a link at the moment, while I'm busy arguing that the Earth is not flat.

 

[bkp_duke]

Your immune system has two parts: specific and nonspecific.
immune system | Description, Function, & Facts

Your nonspecific immune system is quite capable of attacking novel viruses and developing specific immunity to them. This happens every year with novel flu viruses. If it didn't, every person exposed to the latest new Coronavirus would be dying or dead.

Ah, yes, the lay persons interpretation of the immune system.

Let's be CRYSTAL clear here - without the specific arm of the immune system, the non-specific arm has ZERO chance of fighting off a viral infection. Antibodies (the specific arm) are critical and essential to this process. The non-specific arm of the immune system is pretty much relegated to "cleanup duty" AFTER the specific arm gets the upper hand on the virus, through the production of B and T cells specific for that virus.

 

[PeterJA]

What are we even talking about? Obviously, in the more likely than not event that you recover from coronavirus, you are immune, at least for a reasonably long period of time. This is not surprising information. That's what a functioning immune system does. You'll be fine as long as you're not dead and you don't suffer permanent lung damage.

Glad to see you agree with me. I nominate you for the job of educating @Lessmog.

 

[bkp_duke]

Clueless, because conventional doctors get their information from sources dominated by drug makers. Ask your doctor how many hours of nutrition education he/she received in medical school.

You are so full of *sugar* and have no clue what you are talking about.

I received a crap ton of education for nutrition. So much so that I have a Ph.D. in molecular biology that specifically investigated pathways of metabolism, and then went on to practice medicine specifically treating diabetes and other metabolic disorders.

Go back to your bong, you are contributing nothing to the intellectual store of this thread.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Glad to see you agree with me.

Not really.

China is going back to work because of the wonders of the human immune system.

Do explain. Or, maybe better...don't.

To be clear, it actually would have been "fine" if every single person infected with coronavirus in China had died. That would require nothing from the human immune system. And China could still go back to work, according to your logic.

 

[MXLRplus]

Wow. My congressman just texted me about C19. Never donate to a campaign and use your correct ph#. You will be hounded for life.

 

[bkp_duke]

I don't think that's true, because cold viruses (coronaviruses) mutate every year. But I don't have time to provide a link at the moment, while I'm busy arguing that the Earth is not flat.

Actually, this is patently false and has been disproven repeatedly in this thread. Coronaviruses have mutation rates that are about 1/4 that of influenza (they have a proof-reading mechanism in their viral replication that influenza does not).

The reason people KEEP getting colds from coronaviruses is that their immunity is NOT long-lasting (1-2 years).

 

[bkp_duke]

And back to productive discussions, the US just blew through 60,000 cases and 800 deaths, with no apparently flattening of the curve in NY.
United States Coronavirus: 60,653 Cases and 819 Deaths - Worldometer

 

[SageBrush]

I don't think that's true, because cold viruses (coronaviruses) mutate every year. But I don't have time to provide a link at the moment, while I'm busy arguing that the Earth is not flat.

It's more a case of immunity waning by the next season, and a plethora of "cold" viruses. As people get older they retain a larger (albeit attenuated) armentarium against the "cold."

 

[PeterJA]

Ah, yes, the lay persons interpretation of the immune system.

Let's be CRYSTAL clear here - without the specific arm of the immune system, the non-specific arm has ZERO chance of fighting off a viral infection. Antibodies (the specific arm) are critical and essential to this process. The non-specific arm of the immune system is pretty much relegated to "cleanup duty" AFTER the specific arm gets the upper hand on the virus, through the production of B and T cells specific for that virus.

Again misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't say the specific arm is not essential. I was responding to the claim that the immune system has no defense agains novel viruses. Again that claim is obviously false or the Coronavirus mortality rate would be 100%.

 

[SageBrush]

A fact checking site has decided to debunk trump BS
Correcting Trump's Press Conference Misinformation

 

[SageBrush]

Actually I didn't ignore inoculum (vaccination),

You are making a very imprecise connection, although not 100% wrong if reasoning by analogy.

Inoculum refers to initial viral load. In all recombinant vaccines the inoculum has no meaning insofar as there is no viral replication. In such a vaccine you could talk about dose.

 

[Daniel in SD]

This is patently false. Drug treatments are being widely disseminated and announced (including by our President) before clinical trials have been completed. Clinical trial(s) of IV vitamin C are underway in China (to verify the enormous existing evidence for the efficacy of vitamin C in viral infections), but have you heard about this from mainstream medical and government bodies?

You posted a link to mainstream media reporting on the testing of vitamin C!
Drug companies don't make any money off of chloroquine and doctors are testing that. They're testing a bunch of off patent antivirals too.

 

[PeterJA]

You are so full of *sugar* and have no clue what you are talking about.

I received a crap ton of education for nutrition. So much so that I have a Ph.D. in molecular biology that specifically investigated pathways of metabolism, and then went on to practice medicine specifically treating diabetes and other metabolic disorders.

Go back to your bong, you are contributing nothing to the intellectual store of this thread.

I think you have lost objectivity.

...a recent study found that, among a cohort of 930 cardiologists, 90% believe their role includes providing patients with basic nutrition information. In the same group of physicians, though, 90% stated that they had received little-to-no training in nutrition during their fellowship, 59% stated that they had received no nutrition during internal medicine training, and 31% reported no nutrition education in medical school.4
https://nutrition.org/a-time-for-change-nutrition-education-in-medicine/

...On average, U.S. medical schools offer only 19.6 hours of nutrition education across four years of medical school, according to a 2010 report in Academic Medicine. In a 2016 study, researchers at Case Western Reserve University examined data from 25 family medicine, internal medicine and OB-GYN medical residency programs throughout Ohio: What they found is that these programs averaged 2.8 hours of instruction on obesity, nutrition and physical activity counseling...
https://health.usnews.com/wellness/...-07/how-much-do-doctors-learn-about-nutrition

That's from 2 minutes of googling. Why don't you try it?

 

[PeterJA]

You posted a link to mainstream media reporting on the testing of vitamin C!

A tabloid newspaper. Have you seen reports about it from the CDC?

Drug companies don't make any money off of chloroquine and doctors are testing that. They're testing a bunch of off patent antivirals too.

Really, man, do you think drugs grow on trees?

 

[SageBrush]

I think ...

Not to burst your bubble, but you would be amazed at how much information is stuffed down a medical student.
In my medical school, 19 hours on a topic would be a full course and a requirement for a student to read a complete textbook on the subject. You should also realize that "nutrition" does not exist in vacuum. It comes up in biochemistry, physiology, pharmacology, pathology and medicine.