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That's really not what I was laughing at. It is the conspiratorial thinking...
It seems very likely that effective treatments for COVID-19 exist.
We have inadequate basis for that assertion. We can say that effective treatments for COVID-19 might exist and in any event very likely could be developed.

Anyway, we need precise definitions for 'effective' also. After all whatever treatments or preventive solutions may exist already or will be developed they will all be probabilistic.

There are cases in medicine in which a disease can be 100% eradicated every time. Those cases are mostly surgical ones. If, for example, a person has bladder cancer that has not spread, one can surgically remove the diseased organ, which will eradicate the disease. There will be consequences, but the cancer will be gone.

With viral diseases most 'cures' are probabilistic, just as vaccinations are inherently probabilistic.
Bacterial disease can be 'cured', usually with antibiotics. Not so with viral ones, simply because human technologies do not yet exist to make viral cures a sure thing. Even when sure things exist, they may well not remain a sure thing simply because organisms do seem to want to survive and they establish defense mechanisms to help them do that.

In medicine those issues are part of the reason why physicians, at their best, consider many factors as they consider optimal treatment. The best ones try to engage the patient in helping them do that. Most patients may not know how to efficiently help the physician.

Here on this thread it seems to me we should try hard to understand what a coronavirus is. We also should all understand why so little exhaustive efforts have been made to determine the best way to attack them. After all the most common coronavirus disease is the common cold, and there the treatment options are quite trivial because the disease itself is deal with pretty well by most human bodies.

Now we have something 'novel'. That means we do not know what to do about it. It also means we don't know how to treat it.

I don't mean to be obnoxious. I do mean to emphasize that this is science, so 'novel' by definition means we do not know. Still the absence of knowledge does not mean the absence of opinion. As scientists, if we have only a little bit of evidence we can form an hypothesis. Just now there are hundreds of hypotheses floating around, a good many of them are being tested. That is all we have.

In the meantime thousands of excellent physicians are guessing, because not doing anything is not a choice. They must do whatever they think might help and hopefully not hurt. Then they report the results and we all promptly overreact to those reports.

Life is always thus.
 
That's really not what I was laughing at. It is the conspiratorial thinking...
It seems very likely that effective treatments for COVID-19 exist.

I'm not following your logic. If effective treatments exist but are not being widely disseminated, why is it (crazy) "conspiratorial thinking" to wonder why? Do you think powerful industries don't defend themselves with disinformation? Have you heard of the tobacco industry or Exxon's climate-change campaign?
 
In you enjoy a trip down medical history lane, start from Linus Pauling.
Rather than get annoyed by laypeople posting nonsense, I'll mention a little bit about Linus Pauling

Pauling was a celebrated 20th century chemist from Cal-tech and a Nobel laureate. His many amazing accomplishments included identifying the triple helix as the tertiary structure of a certain protein. He used his considerable fame and influence to advocate Vitamin C for disease prevention and treatment. IIRC he was most enamored with treating the "common cold" with high dose Vit C. FYI, the CoronaVirus family is one of the main causes of the "common cold." He also had a very public spat with Watson (whom he viewed as a dilettante) regarding the likely tertiary structure of nucleic acids. He was convinced that the structure would also be a triple helix.

While he will be remembered for his brilliance by the science community, his public image and later life were tarnished by his errors and hubris when it came to DNA/RNA and Vit C.

As a side note, Watson one-upped Pauling by advocating eugenics with his fame.
 
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I'm not following your logic. If effective treatments exist but are not being widely disseminated, why is it (crazy) "conspiratorial thinking" to wonder why? Do you think powerful industries don't defend themselves with disinformation? Have you heard of the tobacco industry or Exxon's climate-change campaign?
They are not being widely disseminated because they are still being studied to determine if they wor. COVID-19 is completely new and it takes time for doctors and researchers to determine which treatments work.
 
We have inadequate basis for that assertion. We can say that effective treatments for COVID-19 might exist and in any event very likely could be developed.

Anyway, we need precise definitions for 'effective' also. After all whatever treatments or preventive solutions may exist already or will be developed they will all be probabilistic.

There are cases in medicine in which a disease can be 100% eradicated every time. Those cases are mostly surgical ones. If, for example, a person has bladder cancer that has not spread, one can surgically remove the diseased organ, which will eradicate the disease. There will be consequences, but the cancer will be gone.

With viral diseases most 'cures' are probabilistic, just as vaccinations are inherently probabilistic.
Bacterial disease can be 'cured', usually with antibiotics. Not so with viral ones, simply because human technologies do not yet exist to make viral cures a sure thing. Even when sure things exist, they may well not remain a sure thing simply because organisms do seem to want to survive and they establish defense mechanisms to help them do that.

In medicine those issues are part of the reason why physicians, at their best, consider many factors as they consider optimal treatment. The best ones try to engage the patient in helping them do that. Most patients may not know how to efficiently help the physician.

Here on this thread it seems to me we should try hard to understand what a coronavirus is. We also should all understand why so little exhaustive efforts have been made to determine the best way to attack them. After all the most common coronavirus disease is the common cold, and there the treatment options are quite trivial because the disease itself is deal with pretty well by most human bodies.

Now we have something 'novel'. That means we do not know what to do about it. It also means we don't know how to treat it.

I don't mean to be obnoxious. I do mean to emphasize that this is science, so 'novel' by definition means we do not know. Still the absence of knowledge does not mean the absence of opinion. As scientists, if we have only a little bit of evidence we can form an hypothesis. Just now there are hundreds of hypotheses floating around, a good many of them are being tested. That is all we have.

In the meantime thousands of excellent physicians are guessing, because not doing anything is not a choice. They must do whatever they think might help and hopefully not hurt. Then they report the results and we all promptly overreact to those reports.

Life is always thus.

Your immune system has two parts: specific and nonspecific.
immune system | Description, Function, & Facts

Your nonspecific immune system is quite capable of attacking novel viruses and developing specific immunity to them. This happens every year with novel flu viruses. If it didn't, every person exposed to the latest new Coronavirus would be dying or dead.
 
Your immune system has two parts: specific and nonspecific.
immune system | Description, Function, & Facts

Your nonspecific immune system is quite capable of attacking novel viruses and developing specific immunity to them. This happens every year with novel flu viruses. If it didn't, every person exposed to the latest new Coronavirus would be dying or dead.
So, let them die? Throw the witch in a lake and see if she floats (positive result; burn her) or drowns (negative result; she was innocent, too bad) -- No thanks!
 
Your immune system has two parts: specific and nonspecific.
immune system | Description, Function, & Facts

Your nonspecific immune system is quite capable of attacking novel viruses and developing specific immunity to them. This happens every year with novel flu viruses. If it didn't, every person exposed to the latest new Coronavirus would be dying or dead.
This is not so much wrong, as it is a very incomplete picture. It ignores co-morbidities, and it ignores inoculum.
 
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They are not being widely disseminated because they are still being studied to determine if they wor. COVID-19 is completely new and it takes time for doctors and researchers to determine which treatments work.

This is patently false. Drug treatments are being widely disseminated and announced (including by our President) before clinical trials have been completed. Clinical trial(s) of IV vitamin C are underway in China (to verify the enormous existing evidence for the efficacy of vitamin C in viral infections), but have you heard about this from mainstream medical and government bodies?
 
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I'm not following your logic. If effective treatments exist but are not being widely disseminated, why is it (crazy) "conspiratorial thinking" to wonder why? Do you think powerful industries don't defend themselves with disinformation? Have you heard of the tobacco industry or Exxon's climate-change campaign?

For a conspiracy of that scale to hold true, you'd have to have almost the entire medical community - every individual doctor in the world, either be in on it, or be clueless.

Which is it?
 
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This is patently false. Drug treatments are being widely disseminated and announced (including by our President) before clinical trials have been completed. Clinical trial(s) of IV vitamin C are underway in China (to verify the enormous existing evidence for the efficacy of vitamin C in viral infections), but have you heard about this from mainstream medical and government bodies?
Well, if you tweet it to Real Donald, I'm sure he will pick it up in no time. / snark
 
@bkp_duke, I was just reading about the loss of smell/taste symptoms in this article: Lost Smell and Taste Hint COVID-19 Can Target the Nervous System
They mentioned a possible mechanism via the nervous system. That got me thinking about the treatment of shingles by the antiviral acyclovir. Has there been any testing or data regarding it’s efficacy on C19? It’s dirt cheap ($0.04-$0.12 per dose), widely available with known side effects. Aciclovir - Wikipedia
 
So, let them die? Throw the witch in a lake and see if she floats (positive result; burn her) or drowns (negative result; she was innocent, too bad) -- No thanks!

Dude, what on Earth are you talking about? I said supporting the immune system with vitamin C can cure COVID-19. Being thrown in a lake does not support the immune system (although swimming and other exercise does in a healthy person).

This is not so much wrong, as it is a very incomplete picture. It ignores co-morbidities, and it ignores inoculum.

Actually I didn't ignore inoculum (vaccination), as you can see from my posts. Co-morbidites are obviously a burden on the immune system that reduces its ability to fight viruses, novel or not.
 
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For a conspiracy of that scale to hold true, you'd have to have almost the entire medical community - every individual doctor in the world, either be in on it, or be clueless.

Which is it?

Clueless, because conventional doctors get their information from sources dominated by drug makers. Ask your doctor how many hours of nutrition education he/she received in medical school.
 
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I already linked three sources that the scoffers here have refused to look at. But your obstinate ignorance does not require a link, just simple logic.

If humans could not recover from Coronavirus infection and never stopped shedding the virus, then any infected person would need to be quarantined permanently. Have you read about permanent "leper colonies" being built for COVID-19 patients? Show us a link for that.



Link please.

I think the issue is that we don't know whether or not a post-infected person is still shedding live virii. bkp_dude provided a good case showing someone who was still contagious despite not showing any symptoms for a month.

I'm with you in wanting to believe that post-infected people can be a pathway out of this, but as the others noted, there's no herd immunity. only a small portion of the population (by that i mean chinese) have recovered, and there isn't enough data to conclude that those people can't get re-infected. You can catch a cold from the same cold virus year after year. We just don't care, because it only has a tiny chance of killing you.
 
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@bkp_duke, I was just reading about the loss of smell/taste symptoms in this article: Lost Smell and Taste Hint COVID-19 Can Target the Nervous System
They mentioned a possible mechanism via the nervous system. That got me thinking about the treatment of shingles by the antiviral acyclovir. Has there been any testing or data regarding it’s efficacy on C19? It’s dirt cheap ($0.04-$0.12 per dose), widely available with known side effects. Aciclovir - Wikipedia

Theoretically, it should not be of any benefit. Herpes viruses are DNA viruses. Coronavirus is an RNA virus.

The mechanism of action for acyclovir (scroll down on your wiki page to Mechanism of Action) is very specific to the DNA polymerase of herpes viruses.

Worth a thought, but just by the mechanism there is virtually no chance it would work.