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You were attributing it to some sort of anti-Trump bias though.

No, that was your assumption. I should have probably removed the word Trump from the post, but that would be editing the news content.
They could have said US President. A temporary restriction immigration right now has no serious financial effects.

The market is more likely hurting because of the size of the US energy sector and the damage that is being caused in the futures market than a suspension in immigration. That is really silly.
 
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This is a useful primer on anti-body tests.

Understanding diagnostic tests 1: sensitivity, specificity and predictive values : COVID19

And an interesting comment ...

"It’s like walking around with a 97% specific elephant detector and coming back to hold a press conference to excitedly tell everyone that your town has thousands of elephants in people’s homes."
It is a useful tool to access how widespread the disease is - but not good enough to reliably identify individuals who are positive.
 
From the second link, those IgG and IgM specificities are listed as 99.5% and 99.2%, respectively, using patient pools of 446 and 456. Wonder why they are higher than in the 1st link. Possibly a continuation of testing and refinement of the test spec/sens?

Still not finding that "100%" specificity that the LA researchers claim.

Yeah, no idea why they are higher or what the differences are in the tests.

Unless we're planning to blame China when we make poor public health decisions based on insufficiently specific antibody assays, it might be good for teams here in the US to really put these lateral flow tests through the wringer to see how they actually perform.

Here's a nice comparison summary, and a link to a paper discussing specificity of the various tests. Unfortunately the specific test manufacturers are not listed. For all of these, including the ELISA test, more data is needed to determine "true" specificity.

Sek Kathiresan MD on Twitter
 
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It wasn’t CDC who “ _____ the pooch”,
it’s the kleptocrats in charge, who defunded the govt so they could drown it in a bathtub, over the last 40 years beginning with Reagan to the present occupants of the White House, mainly Republicans
Almost 400 empty positions at CDC went unfilled.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/pdf/pandemic-influenza-implementation.pdf
Exclusive: U.S. axed CDC expert job in China months before virus outbreak
October 2019:
A crucial federal program tracking dangerous diseases is shutting down
 
No one will be happy with how this all ends. And how could anyone be anyway?

One thing I assume we can all agree on: the entire system, CDC at the front, completely screwed the pooch on the testing front. We have been flailing about in the dark, forced to make truly earth shattering decisions with woefully incomplete information.

Accurate and plentiful testing mobilized the moment this new disease appeared would have allowed for exactly what we have not had - informed decisions. It would have also indicated a leadership that possessed competence and vision. Or at least one that followed a well established playbook for dealing with an outbreak, or paid attention to at least one of the multiple bad virus movies they had watched.

We have all the technology and tools we need to have defeated this virus from the start. The failure here is complete. This virus could have been so much worse. In the end it is taking it easy on us, perhaps feeling some pity for the host warm bloods as they convulse in their ineptitude.

We had a full two months warning it was coming and completely failed at preparation. Now we bankrupt entire industries, starve people out and shred our constitutions in an attempt to get the best of the situation.

Well, as long as someone gets to make a buck, I guess all is good. Because that seems to be all anyone gives a f#*k about anyway.
Someone once said: "The f#*k stops here". Or words to similar effect. Totally different era altogether.
 
While the decision in Florida to open the beaches seemed silly on its face, I saw a couple pictures (I did not watch video or look extensively) purporting to show lack of social distancing, but it seemed fine to me. It looked like family groups together, and most people were apart.
I've lived near beaches before. Except spring break and three day summer weekends it's easy to maintain safe distances. Newscasters love to show these low angle telephoto shots that make it look like everyone is right on top of each other, but it's an illusion.

I'm a lot more worried about gyms. Forceful breathing will spread the virus much further than at restaurants and such. Think back to that choir practice in Washington. Gyms have lots of fans to keep the air moving. You can't jog on a treadmill wearing an N95. In addition to airborne transmission, the virus will settle on lots of high-touch surfaces.
 
No, that was your assumption. I should have probably removed the word Trump from the post, but that would be editing the news content.
They could have said US President. A temporary restriction immigration right now has no serious financial effects.

The market is more likely hurting because of the size of the US energy sector and the damage that is being caused in the futures market than a suspension in immigration. That is really silly.
Next time quote the actual headline.
The reality is that including Trump's name in a headline probably helps get clicks and links which helps get you to the top of Google search results. Not sure what any of this has to do with Coronavirus. I think we're all in agreement that the actual reason for the stock market decline is that there's a global pandemic.
 
I've lived near beaches before. Except spring break and three day summer weekends it's easy to maintain safe distances. Newscasters love to show these low angle telephoto shots that make it look like everyone is right on top of each other, but it's an illusion.

I'm a lot more worried about gyms. Forceful breathing will spread the virus much further than at restaurants and such. Think back to that choir practice in Washington. Gyms have lots of fans to keep the air moving. You can't jog on a treadmill wearing an N95. In addition to airborne transmission, the virus will settle on lots of high-touch surfaces.
I say open beaches but limit parking or figure out some other way to limit the number of people. Not everyone needs to go to the beach at the same time. Encourage people to go at off hours and during the week.
Opening gyms is insane right now. If we're going to do that they better require every gym to log who comes in so health officials can try to track outbreaks. I'm sure gyms already do that anyway.
 
Counterpoint on antibody testing.

Many people focus only on why antibody tests might overestimate the level of infections and ignore the reasons they might understate them.

One obvious reason -- antibodies take time to form. AFAIK, we don't have good data on how long it takes for anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies to be generated at detectable levels. If we assume this takes 10 days or more, actual infection levels could be double, triple or more the measured level, depending on the growth rate of infections during that time lag.

For example, the LA samples were taken on April 10-11. If it takes 10 days for antibodies to be detected, the testing only measures the level of infections on ~April 1. The level of infections now -- 20 days later -- could be easily be double or triple what they were then.

Whatever the exact time lag, there is no question that infections are substantially greater now than could be detected by antibody testing on April 10/11.

Michael Mina has a good discussion in this thread: Michael Mina on Twitter

This is one of many reasons some antibody studies could be substantially understating the level of infections.
 
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Probably not directly related to the virus itself, but the time spent lying in bed. The longer you spend in bed (weeks vs. days), the greater the risk for blood clots. COVID-19 is a relatively long respiratory infection, because of this you have a greater chance of secondary complications like blood clots.
@bkp_duke
Wasn’t there a few years back an ecoli that hosed the kidneys by making RBC’s a bit “sticky/clumpy” to each other and causing clots?
 
Counterpoint on antibody testing.

Many people focus only on why antibody tests might overestimate the level of infections and ignore the reasons they might understate them.

One obvious reason -- antibodies take time to form. AFAIK, we don't have good data on how long it takes for anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies to be generated at detectable levels. If we assume this takes 10 days or more, actual infection levels could be double, triple or more the measured level, depending on the growth rate of infections during that time lag.

For example, the LA samples were taken on April 10-11. If it takes 10 days for antibodies to be detected, the testing only measures the level of infections on ~April 1. The level of infections now -- 20 days later -- could be easily be double or triple what they were then.

Whatever the exact number, there is no question that infections are substantially greater now than could be detected by antibody testing on April 10/11.

Michael Mina has a good discussion in this thread: Michael Mina on Twitter

This is one of many reasons some antibody studies could be substantially understating the level of infections.

You're suggesting that with social distancing and mitigation that the level of infection is STILL doubling every 2 weeks to 10 days at least? This implies an R subscript value well above 1 which is not what the research is suggesting for that area. Again where is your data for this wild idea?
 
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@bkp_duke
Wasn’t there a few years back an ecoli that hosed the kidneys by making RBC’s a bit “sticky/clumpy” to each other and causing clots?

Not that I'm aware of, but bacteremia (bacteria in the blood) does a lot of funny things vs. viremia (viruses in the blood).

E. Coli bacteremia is known to be really hard on the kidneys, due to a toxin that the bacteria produce.
 
Not that I'm aware of, but bacteremia (bacteria in the blood) does a lot of funny things vs. viremia (viruses in the blood).

E. Coli bacteremia is known to be really hard on the kidneys, due to a toxin that the bacteria produce.
@bkp_duke
Ah! That’s what mis-remembered.
(Apologies for misspelling E. Coli.)
I’m a bit worried about Floriduh opening back up beaches and such.
and the experiment Georgia, South Carolina and Tennessee are starting by opening back up. Georgia Friday.
Thanks
Peace
 
@bkp_duke
Ah! That’s what mis-remembered.
(Apologies for misspelling E. Coli.)
I’m a bit worried about Floriduh opening back up beaches and such.
and the experiment Georgia, South Carolina and Tennessee are starting by opening back up. Georgia Friday.
Thanks
Peace

The south is doing some interesting . . . experiments, it seems.

I guess we'll see in the end who's idea has the better outcome.
 
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The south is doing some interesting . . . experiments, it seems.

I guess we'll see in the end who's idea has the better outcome.

We are woefully unprepared in the USA. Even at essential businesses that stayed open. It seems like every day there is a new article about some food manufacturing or meat processing plant that is shut down due to an outbreak.

If we can't even get a system where essential businesses stay open, how do we get non-essential businesses open without creating a massive spike? Kind of amazing that that these guys aren't talking enough about testing and contact tracing. It was obvious a month ago....
 
If it takes 10 days for antibodies to be detected, the testing only measures the level of infections on ~April 1. The level of infections now -- 20 days later -- could be easily be double or triple what they were then.

True, likely a fair number of false negatives.

If we assume this takes 10 days or more, actual infection levels could be double, triple or more the measured level, depending on the growth rate of infections during that time lag.

Hopefully new infection growth has slowed substantially, but yes, infection levels will certainly be higher.

This is one of many reasons some antibody studies could be substantially understating the level of infections.

Yikes!

Could absolutely be. But remember, we don't actually know what the antibody tests are telling us, except that with high likelihood the prevalence in the places tested is less than 5%. It could be 0.5%. It could be 1.5%, it could be 3%. No one knows.

To think of it simply, the antibody tests used so far can't accurately measure prevalence below about 5%. We need to get calibration data on the tests for the numbers to be useful. Once we get a test that has high specificity (actually measures at 99.5% specificity (or whatever) for a very large number of test samples, so also has high confidence), then we can bound these numbers a bit better. Remember that for very low prevalence, you have to have extremely high confidence in the exact specificity of your test. (Realistically it's probably easier to just test a higher prevalence population, or use a different test!)

For now, all we can say is that some unknown number below about 5% have been infected, and the real number of infected people could be either higher or lower than that unknown %. So the actual prevalence is N*M%, where N is unknown and greater than 1, and M is unknown and between 0 and 5 (or whatever).

As the threads you referenced say, it's all an academic debate until we have better certainty on those numbers - we simply have to stop the virus, since it collapses healthcare systems when left to its own devices.

Once we have nice and certain numbers, and learn more about the virus spread, then we can adopt more targeted measures if there are some which will work.

Just how many people do you think are infected in NYC? What would you guess the prevalence will end up being there? I am guessing between 20 and 30%.

In LA County, I would guess SARS-CoV-2 antibody prevalence is between 1 and 2%, as of today (would have been quite a bit lower a couple weeks ago).
 
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