Coronavirus

[Papafox]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...622456-8af2-11ea-ac8a-fe9b8088e101_story.html
Doctor Who Promoted Malarial Drug Draws Scrutiny of Federal Prosectors

He cannot support his claims, and even says he's "not a researcher". If you try to "publish" on youtube your "research" but then back peddle that you are "not a researcher" . . . things start to smell fishy.

He didn't run COVID-19 tests to check that people ACTUALLY had COVID-19. If you read between the lines he says "they had COVID-19 symptoms". Well, isn't that convenient because many of the symptoms are just . . . . generalized respiratory problems that any virus can cause. Most respiratory diseases are self-limited (i.e. people get better on their own). 100-150 years ago this was the CLASSIC snake oil scam: give someone some special "tonic" to cure their cough and miraculously . . . most people with a cough got better.

I can CLAIM to have cured cancer. The ONUS is on me to PROVE it, not to just make the statement. What he provided as "evidence" is . . . no evidence.

But, apparently we live in country full of suckers, and more are born every minute.

Here's a non-firewalled report on the issue with Zelenko so that members of this forum can actually read the story.
DOJ probes doctor whose hydroxychloroquine claims were touted by Sean Hannity

The problem came about when Jerome Corsi emailed a federal prosecuter whose last name begins with "Z" instead of Zelenko and mentioned that Zelenko had an FDA-approved randomized test underway. The prosecutor jumped on the email and went after Corsi and Zelenko because the study being conducted by the hospital was not FDA-approved as Zelenko had thought.

That's it.

There was no proof that HCQ is not effective. There was a confusion by Zelenko about whether the hospital's study was FDA-approved.

Would you please back off the "snake oil" and other inappropriate attacks on HCQ? You are a normally-helpful member of this forum but when it comes to HCQ you are way, way, off base. If you have data to suggest that the recent NYU study of HCQ plus zinc showing a 44% reduction in deaths from COVID19 is incorrect, please share with us.

 

[bkp_duke]

There was no proof that HCQ is not effective.

And here is the ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. You don't PROVE that something is NOT effective. You MUST PROVE that something IS EFFECTIVE.

Contrary to what you are trying to imply here, the NYU study does NOT show what you are implying it does.

The below is STRAIGHT from the paper:
This study has several limitations. First, this was an observational retrospective analysis that could be impacted by confounding variables. This is well demonstrated by the analyses adjusting for the difference in timing between the patients who did not receive zinc and those who did. In addition, we only looked at patients taking hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin. We do not know whether the observed added benefit of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin on mortality would have been seen in patients who took zinc sulfate alone or in combination with just one of those medications. We also do not have data on the time at which the patients included in the study initiated therapy with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc. Those drugs would have been started at the same time as a combination therapy, but the point in clinical disease at which patients received those medications could have differed between our two groups. Finally, the cohorts were identified based on medications ordered rather than confirmed administration, which may bias findings towards favoring equipoise between the two groups. In light of these limitations, this study should not be used to guide clinical practice. Rather, our observations support the initiation of future randomized clinical trials investigating zinc sulfate against COVID-19.


I also have ALREADY quoted THIS PARAGRAPH from that paper, which is the key paragraph of the ENTIRE paper:
The addition of zinc sulfate did not impact the length of hospitalization, duration of ventilation, or ICU duration. In univariate analyses, zinc sulfate increased the frequency of patients being discharged home, and decreased the need for ventilation, admission to the ICU, and mortality or transfer to hospice for patients who were never admitted to the ICU. After adjusting for the time at which zinc sulfate was added to our protocol, an increased frequency of being discharged home (OR 1.53, 95% CI 1.12-2.09) reduction in mortality or transfer to hospice remained significant (OR 0.449, 95% CI 0.271-0.744).

YOU SIR ARE MISQUOTING THIS PAPER BY SAYING IT REDUCED DEATHS BY 44%

After massaging the data with some statistics, they claim to be able to discharge home patients that were not critically ill faster and at a higher rate. THAT IS NOT THE SAME THING. And those are the "least sick" of the patients in the study.



EDIT - original paper for those that want to read it:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.02.20080036v1.full.pdf

 

[RandomJohnny]

Would you please back off the "snake oil" and other inappropriate attacks on HCQ? You are a normally-helpful member of this forum but when it comes to HCQ you are way, way, off base. If you have data to suggest that the recent NYU study of HCQ plus zinc showing a 44% reduction in deaths from COVID19 is incorrect, please share with us.

Would you expect anything less from a Gilead shareholder? Maybe a big pharma paid concern troll?

I will take the anecdotes from docs on the ground worldwide, ie actually practicing, over any supposed TSLA investor who is constantly touting that he has two degrees and posting here day and nite. There are, in fact, so many physicians prescribing HCQ off label for prophylactic and COVID treatment that Pharmacy Boards have stepped in out of concerns for supply. It is debatable whether this is government overstep and/or interference of patient physician relations but there are a ton of docs out there who think otherwise about HCQ.

The fact that CNN and other media outlets have sensationalized HCQ as a death drug should give anyone with some common sense that there is more at play here. Moreover, their obsession with HCQ in regards to Trump is even more telling.

I will, however, give bkp_duke full credit for not putting people on ignore for having dissenting opinions (this appears to be true in general but can only confirm he hasn't ignored me)

 

[lascavarian]

Ford reacts to virus exposure.

Ford shuts down Dearborn Truck Plant after worker tests positive for coronavirus

In other news Tesla drops suit against restrictions due to public health concerns.

Tesla drops lawsuit against California's Alameda County over coronavirus restrictions

 

[bkp_duke]

Would you expect anything less from a Gilead shareholder? Maybe a big pharma paid concern troll?

I will take the anecdotes from docs on the ground worldwide, ie actually practicing, over any supposed TSLA investor who is constantly touting that he has two degrees and posting here day and nite. There are, in fact, so many physicians prescribing HCQ off label for prophylactic and COVID treatment that Pharmacy Boards have stepped in out of concerns for supply. It is debatable whether this is government overstep and/or interference of patient physician relations but there are a ton of docs out there who think otherwise about HCQ.

The fact that CNN and other media outlets have sensationalized HCQ as a death drug should give anyone with some common sense that there is more at play here. Moreover, their obsession with HCQ in regards to Trump is even more telling.

I will, however, give bkp_duke full credit for not putting people on ignore for having dissenting opinions (this appears to be true in general but can only confirm he hasn't ignored me)

Go take HCQ. I don't care if you keel over and die because of it, perhaps we can reduce the level of stupidity in the gene pool just a small bit with every idiot that does go take this.

Furthermore, what could possibly be my motivation to keep someone from taking this crap? If I did have Gilead shares, my "trolling" a car forum is not going to make any appreciable difference to the stock price. That argument just doesn't hold water.

Morons here seem to think this is a benign drug. It's not. There are serious side effects to this medication and already deaths have occurred due to it being prescribed with no clear benefit.
Covid-19: VA Study Points to Increased Mortality with Hydroxychloroquine | Physician's Weekly

 

[Dr. J]

Ford reacts to death.

"Death?" Or positive CV test?

 

[HG Wells]

Ford closes two plants due to virus.

Ford forced to halt production at two plants after employees test positive for Covid-19 - CNN

 

[cusetownusa]

Sweden is hardly the libertarian Wild-West so to speak. They actually have done a lot of social distancing, limited the size of at least some gatherings, and they optionally wear masks. And they're more compliant overall with those restrictions even while economic activity continues in some fashion than many Americans appear to be. So in that sense their response still involves a lot of mitigation measures even if it doesn't involve the hammer so to speak of stay-at-home or closed businesses.

We on the other hand have the worst of Both Worlds. Lots of infections, lots of death, and crashed economies. This is all due to the failure of early testing and the inability to discriminate between folks who should be at home and folks who shouldn't.

Yes, I agree. However, I still expected a much higher percentage of people who have had the virus in Sweden at this point. While they aren't the wild west they are still much more open than most other European countries as well as the US.

 

[Papafox]

YOU SIR ARE MISQUOTING THIS PAPER BY SAYING IT REDUCED DEATHS BY 44%

I was quoting the article about NYU's stydy I read. Here's what the article said:


Drug Combo with Hydroxychloroquine Promising: NYU Study
By Alyssa Paolicelli New York City
PUBLISHED 7:18 AM ET May. 12, 2020

NEW YORK - Researchers at NYU's Grossman School of Medicine found patients given the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine along with zinc sulphate and the antibiotic azithromycin were 44 percent less likely to die from the coronavirus.

You see, that's not a horrible mischaracterization of what I read. I have not read the actual study, but I'm willing to believe that it is positive to generate this positive an article. I fully expect that the article did not get all the nuances right about the 44% less chance of death, either.

What we're dealing with here is a big grey area. HCQ+Zinc+Azithromycin is neither a silver bullet nor snake oil at this point in time. It's somewhere in the middle. I'm not claiming that this combo is the definitive silver bullet, but you are claiming that it's snake oil. Neither extreme position is warranted.

Why don't we be curious and see how things unfold? I'm rather optimistic, you're rather pessimistic. That's fine. Let the truth be known. I'm going to continue bringing these developments to the eyes of forum users so that they can decide for themselves.

 

[lascavarian]

"Death?" Or positive CV test?

Correct you are. Edit invoked!

 

[bkp_duke]

I was quoting the article about NYU's stydy I read. Here's what the article said:


Drug Combo with Hydroxychloroquine Promising: NYU Study
By Alyssa Paolicelli New York City
PUBLISHED 7:18 AM ET May. 12, 2020

NEW YORK - Researchers at NYU's Grossman School of Medicine found patients given the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine along with zinc sulphate and the antibiotic azithromycin were 44 percent less likely to die from the coronavirus.

You see, that's not a horrible mischaracterization of what I read. I have not read the actual study, but I'm willing to believe that it is positive to generate this positive an article. I fully expect that the article did not get all the nuances right about the 44% less chance of death, either.

What we're dealing with here is a big grey area. HCQ+Zinc+Azithromycin is neither a silver bullet nor snake oil at this point in time. It's somewhere in the middle. I'm not claiming that this combo is the definitive silver bullet, but you are claiming that it's snake oil. Neither extreme position is warranted.

Why don't we be curious and see how things unfold. I'm rather optimistic, you're rather pessimistic. That's fine. Let the truth be known. I'm going to continue bringing these developments to the eyes of forum users so that they can decide for themselves.

There's your problem. Go read the actual article. Not some news piece that has put a spin on it. That news outlet should be sued for gross mis-representation of the facts (and that is what this is).

I linked you the actual article, and the ACTUAL quotes from the article itself. NO WHERE in that journal article do they say that you can get a 44% reduction in death. That would be nothing short of MIRACULOUS. From a science standpoint, it's actually more of a "starter" paper and the researchers clearly state that conclusions should NOT be drawn from this for use in patients and that much more research is needed.


Apparently . . . no one actually READS original sources anymore . . .

 

[Norbert]

Ousted scientist says she was asked to manipulate Florida COVID-19 data

Late Monday, Jones said she was not only removed from her position heading up the dashboard team but was fired from her job entirely because she refused to juke the stats. In an email to local outlet CBS12, Jones said she lost her position because she refused "to manually change data to drum up support for the plan to reopen" the state.

Other states have also faced allegations of manipulating data related to the novel coronavirus to make conditions appear more favorable. The Atlantic reported at length last week on data collection in Virginia, for example, where state health officials were combining data from two different kinds of COVID-19 test in a way that made the result look more favorable to the public. (The state has since discontinued the practice.)

Last last week, officials in Georgia, which has also been rapidly reopening businesses, faced criticism for publishing a deeply misleading bar chart that appeared to show a decline in COVID-19 diagnoses over time—by mixing up the dates on the X-axis and putting them out of order.

 

[madodel]

I guess I have to stop reading this forum and elsewhere. My wife came home from work and told me she had a couple patients in her office today who had recovered from COVID-19 and were now testing positive so she asked the ID guy about it and he said... I interrupted her and said, yes they aren't shedding live virus but have dead RNA that is causing the test to read positive. Took all the thrill out of her telling me something she assumed I wouldn't know.

 

[Papafox]

There's your problem. Go read the actual article. Not some news piece that has put a spin on it. That news outlet should be sued for gross mis-representation of the facts (and that is what this is).

I linked you the actual article, and the ACTUAL quotes from the article itself. NO WHERE in that journal article do they say that you can get a 44% reduction in death. That would be nothing short of MIRACULOUS. From a science standpoint, it's actually more of a "starter" paper and the researchers clearly state that conclusions should NOT be drawn from this for use in patients and that much more research is needed.


Apparently . . . no one actually READS original sources anymore . . .

Thanks for including the link to the original source paper. I agree that whomever wrote the article on this paper took inappropriate liberties.

I have to say, though, that the paper reinforces my hypothesis that I've been speaking about on this thread, namely that HCQ is best used in conjunction with Zinc and azythromycin and that the combo should be given early to head off the battle within the lungs. Once the patient is in the ICU with serious lung complications other treatments are better. Here's what the paper said:

The main finding of this study is that after adjusting for the timing of zinc therapy, we found that the addition of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was found to associate with a decrease in mortality or transition to hospice among patients who did not require ICU level of care, but this association was not significant in patients who were treated in the ICU. This result may be reflective of the proposed mechanism of action of zinc sulfate in COVID-19. Zinc has been shown to reduce SARS-CoV RNA dependent RNA polymerase activity in vitro [13]. As such, zinc may have a role in preventing the virus from progressing to severe disease, but once the aberrant production of systemic immune mediators is initiated, known as the cytokine storm, the addition of zinc may no longer be effective [17]. Our findings suggest a potential therapeutic synergistic mechanism of zinc sulfate with hydroxychloroquine, if used early on in presentation with COVID-19.

 

[RandomJohnny]

Go take HCQ. I don't care if you keel over and die because of it, perhaps we can reduce the level of stupidity in the gene pool just a small bit with every idiot that does go take this.

Furthermore, what could possibly be my motivation to keep someone from taking this crap? If I did have Gilead shares, my "trolling" a car forum is not going to make any appreciable difference to the stock price. That argument just doesn't hold water.

Morons here seem to think this is a benign drug. It's not. There are serious side effects to this medication and already deaths have occurred due to it being prescribed with no clear benefit.
Covid-19: VA Study Points to Increased Mortality with Hydroxychloroquine | Physician's Weekly

One of the common themes you will see by big pharma paid trolls is they will insult anyone who questions their talking points. The use of stupid, moron and uneducated are the most common. Big pharma trolls are everywhere and it does not necessarily have anything to do with stock price. You are combining the two statements I made but they were not necessarily correlated. You do have Gilead shares but you spend so much time on here posting that you have a hard time keeping your stories straight. In fact, you often contradict yourself over pages and pages and pages of posts but you post so much nobody would notice.

Speaking of contradictions. If someone quotes a study to duke that is not peer reviewed and he disagrees with the outcome he will go on and on about how it is not peer reviewed, peer reviewed is the gold standard yada yada yada. But then suddenly, he finds a super flawed study that is not peer reviewed and uses it to argue his point. LOL really LOL.

The VA secretary just spoke publicly about that crap study yesterday during Trumps roundtable and other scientists are pointing out the glaring flaws of this study you love to use to push your propaganda. Look it up.

This was a crap NIH study who by the way just happens to be funding Gilead's trials of Redesmivir. No problems there.

Prescription drugs can have the potential serious side effects? No way, so that is the reason for the "legend", thanks for information "doc".

 

[bkp_duke]

Thanks for including the link to the original source paper. I agree that whomever wrote the article on this paper took inappropriate liberties.

I have to say, though, that the paper reinforces my hypothesis that I've been speaking about on this thread, namely that HCQ is best used in conjunction with Zinc and azythromycin and that the combo should be given early to head off the battle within the lungs. Once the patient is in the ICU with serious lung complications other treatments are better. Here's what the paper said:

The main finding of this study is that after adjusting for the timing of zinc therapy, we found that the addition of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was found to associate with a decrease in mortality or transition to hospice among patients who did not require ICU level of care, but this association was not significant in patients who were treated in the ICU. This result may be reflective of the proposed mechanism of action of zinc sulfate in COVID-19. Zinc has been shown to reduce SARS-CoV RNA dependent RNA polymerase activity in vitro [13]. As such, zinc may have a role in preventing the virus from progressing to severe disease, but once the aberrant production of systemic immune mediators is initiated, known as the cytokine storm, the addition of zinc may no longer be effective [17]. Our findings suggest a potential therapeutic synergistic mechanism of zinc sulfate with hydroxychloroquine, if used early on in presentation with COVID-19.

I can see why someone would think that, and there is an argument to be made for it (as heaven help you and others have), however as I've mentioned probably 100 times in this thread, HCQ is not an aspirin. It is not a benign medication at all, and that is why you won't see it prescribed in the outpatient setting for COVID-19.

We are all here arguing about the IFR of COVID-19 and the prevalence in the community, so let me put this into perspective. HCQ the risk of QTc (heart arrhythmia) is very high, and apparently this is made worse by use of azithromycin with HCQ.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2765631

With risks like that, if we put 100 million people on HCQ, we could be talking about people dying from it by the tens to hundreds of thousands.

 

[bkp_duke]

One of the common themes you will see by big pharma paid trolls is they will insult anyone who questions their talking points. The use of stupid, moron and uneducated are the most common. Big pharma trolls are everywhere and it does not necessarily have anything to do with stock price. You are combining the two statements I made but they were not necessarily correlated. You do have Gilead shares but you spend so much time on here posting that you have a hard time keeping your stories straight. In fact, you often contradict yourself over pages and pages and pages of posts but you post so much nobody would notice.

Speaking of contradictions. If someone quotes a study to duke that is not peer reviewed and he disagrees with the outcome he will go on and on about how it is not peer reviewed, peer reviewed is the gold standard yada yada yada. But then suddenly, he finds a super flawed study that is not peer reviewed and uses it to argue his point. LOL really LOL.

The VA secretary just spoke publicly about that crap study yesterday during Trumps roundtable and other scientists are pointing out the glaring flaws of this study you love to use to push your propaganda. Look it up.

This was a crap NIH study who by the way just happens to be funding Gilead's trials of Redesmivir. No problems there.

Prescription drugs can have the potential serious side effects? No way, so that is the reason for the "legend", thanks for information "doc".

Sorry, I don't treat paranoid schizophrenia. You will need to go take your delusions elsewhere.

 

[dfwatt]

Yes, I agree. However, I still expected a much higher percentage of people who have had the virus in Sweden at this point. While they aren't the wild west they are still much more open than most other European countries as well as the US.

Low population density and the highest percentage of adults of any county in the world that live alone. Much less opportunity for spreading if you are contagious, and of course, their lack of DMII/obesity (increasing referred to as 'diabesity'), also one of the lowest in the world. But still, they have paid a price for their pathway relative to Finland, Norway, etc. But too early to pronounce it a success, and long way to get to herd immunity.

 

[Electroman]

There are serious side effects to this medication and already deaths have occurred due to it being prescribed with no clear benefit.

And almost all of the deaths are apparently on patients in advanced stages in ICU on invasive ventilators when they started on HCQ and some of them had prior heart disease. This is the context media won't give us.

Covid-19: VA Study Points to Increased Mortality with Hydroxychloroquine | Physician's Weekly

VA secretary defends use of hydroxychloroquine for veterans, claims analysis led to 'misinformation'

 

[bkp_duke]

And almost all of the deaths are apparently on patients in advanced stages in ICU on invasive ventilators when they started on HCQ and some of them had prior heart disease. This is the context media won't give us.



VA secretary defends use of hydroxychloroquine for veterans, claims analysis led to 'misinformation'

Not an MD. Not a scientist.

Appointed government official. Would you tell Trump he is wrong if you wanted to keep your job? Need I say more?

I voted for Trump, and I still think his administration is a *sugar* show.