Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Coronavirus

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.

Fallzahlen 24-03.jpg

The official number
Source (in German)
At todays press conference the question was raised whether that showed the peak has passed. The answer by the experts was: "Let's still be a bit cautious before drawing any conclusions".
The difference between the official and other numbers was noted by others too and was commented in the sense that the official numbers are based on the compulsory reports received. The source of other numbers floating in the net cannot be traced and may include some double counting.
 
Last edited:
I think we're mostly talking past each other since we agree on the IFR. I'll just say "it's complicated."

It is tricky, yet I don't see any force in your points, and one is flatly incorrect:

- There is nothing wrong with including early deaths. It would be wrong not to include them, since the number is compared to the total number of known cases.

Your stated method was to use the case count from two weeks ago and to use the death count from today. That is too crude a method because many deaths occur between 3-14 days after diagnosis. I would use a 1-week lag, not two weeks. Could be 6 days, or 8 days, but this is just an estimate.

See these Korea cases. They happen to have an inflection point in the ramp so you can kind of line that up in deaths and cases. Looks like about a one-week separation. Which makes a lot of intuitive sense - we have a lot of info showing that people often die in about a week. But it can be shorter and it can be longer.

Screen Shot 2020-03-24 at 1.36.01 PM.png

Screen Shot 2020-03-24 at 1.35.44 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-03-24 at 1.34.24 PM.png


Let's apply that to Germany, specifically: Using your method you get 10% but it's obviously wrong - a lot of the deaths occur sooner than two weeks after identification. But not all. See these graphs:
Screen Shot 2020-03-24 at 1.41.11 PM.png

Screen Shot 2020-03-24 at 1.41.01 PM.png


My crude (but more accurate than yours) method results in a death rate of 123/7272 = 1.7%. This method is crude because it depends on the testing levels, etc. And it's obviously not a rigorous model - it's just a way to quickly see the approximate mortality during a ramp. If the cases aren't ramping anymore it will also potentially be inaccurate.

Conclusion: It doesn't take much at all to get from 9.6% to 0.9% when the case count explodes by a factor of 20 over two weeks
(due to testing increases as well as inherent case growth).

You appear to be repeating the same mistake in this post by claiming the current mortality rate to be 1.3%, as it is apparently derived by comparing today's numbers.

Sure, it isn't exactly right, but since the case count has been fairly steady for quite a while (this only applies in South Korea and China), it does not introduce a lot of error. Maximum error you can see above is likely about the number of critical cases which will convert to some more deaths.

Incidentally, if you do this method with yesterday's numbers for the US, you get 553 deaths / 4663 cases = 12%, which implies a case undercount at that point in time 7 days ago of about a factor of 10 or more - but this is also dependent on the early deaths - US numbers are skewed a bit by the nursing home factors early in the outbreak.

Anyway, seems reasonable that the undercount may have been that severe 7 days ago - it was widely accepted at that point by epidemiologists that there were about 80k active cases (big error bars) in the US at that point in time. And you can see from NYC that a huge number of these cases were in NYC. But they are elsewhere too.

We're probably at about 200k+ cases in the US right now. Really need to get that testing going! Good to see NY got 27k people tested yesterday (~5700 of which were positive!!!).
 
Last edited:
  • Helpful
Reactions: shootformoon
I think we're mostly talking past each other since we agree on the IFR. I'll just say "it's complicated."
As a wise guy on twitter said some time back - there is no point talking about cfr/ifr when the denominator is not known with any kind of certainty.

Just look at hospitalization numbers. Afterall that is what everyone is worried about … make lockdown/lift decisions based on that.

ps :

Florida Stats: still growing 20%+ although today's growth % was less than previous 2 days.View attachment 525221

That 20%+ is just looking at tests. The +ve rate seems to be ~ 9% - so if they test 3k, the cases will double compared to testing 1.5k. As you saw with what happened in NY. Good thing is it is < 10% - and they are publishing a lot of stats.

Hospitalizations is what I'd keep an eye on.
 
I wish you had warned me it is over an hour before urging me to watch to the end! :mad:
Could you at least give some brief notes, seeing as you have already watched it?

South Korea no lock down. They consider themselves a democracy and won't copy Dictatorship type strategies.
compares different societies
Japanese bow - very very little direct contact
Italy kiss each other all the time - and women get groped all the time.
Viruses are not new - Chicken pox & measles - apparently still in the 1980s (for sure in the 1950s, 1960s & 1970s doctors made sure we all got exposed for our immune system. I shared cookie (read infected kid ate 1/2 and I ate the other half).
In S. Korea they tracked infected - were seeing one person on average was passing on the virus to ~ 3 others. UNTIL they reached #31 - no symptoms but had contact with thousands in churches & markets & public transport
(Mary Mallon, known as Typhoid Mary, was cook - showed no symptoms infected at least 51)
Might be much better to let young get infected to build immune system.
Shut down may well cause more deaths - how? people NOT getting treatment/tests for other problems such as curable cancers.

You do know how to speed up clips? try at 1.5x then 1.75x and with Kim I can do 2x adjust with gear icon (settings)
 
I wish you had warned me it is over an hour before urging me to watch to the end! :mad:
Could you at least give some brief notes, seeing as you have already watched it?
Basically, humanity is screwed, our global economy will be cratered, more novel (possibly pandemic) viri will emerge this fall, no vaccine for a year or 2 for Covid-19.
Humanity not in this for long term, short term solutions all with bad long term outcomes
We are all gonna die eventually, some a lot sooner

Listened @2x and kept skipping forward
 
As a wise guy on twitter said some time back - there is no point talking about cfr/ifr when the denominator is not known with any kind of certainty.

Just look at hospitalization numbers. Afterall that is what everyone is worried about … make lockdown/lift decisions based on that.

I think if you read the tea leaves (as described in various ways above) you really can get a decent idea of what the IFR is, and the "true" denominator. IFR seems to be around 1%, but obviously depends on the overall population composition, etc.

Remember, the true denominator is not unknown - it MUST be close to the number of detected cases for a country where the curve has been flattened, unless social distancing/isolation is 100% perfect. You cannot have a very flat curve if a large % of the outstanding cases are circulating in the population!

Hospitalization cannot be used as a lockdown indicator because it is a lagging indicator. For lockdown decisions, they have to be made a month in advance of there being a problem, for optimal results. We haven't done this in the US yet - I really don't understand why not, though.
 
Last edited:
Basically, humanity is screwed, our global economy will be cratered, more novel (possibly pandemic) viri will emerge this fall, no vaccine for a year or 2 for Covid-19.
Humanity not in this for long term, short term solutions all with bad long term outcomes
We are all gonna die eventually, some a lot sooner

Listened @2x and kept skipping forward
Yes yes, but HOW DOES IT END? This is such an intolerable cliffhanger! ;)
 
I think if you read the tea leaves (as described in various ways above) you really can get a decent idea of what the IFR is, and the "true" denominator. IFR seems to be around 1%, but obviously depends on the overall population composition, etc.


No you can't. Oxford Univ has a paper out which puts it much lower than others. There is genuine dispute about the number from various reputed researchers.

Global Covid-19 Case Fatality Rates - new estimates from Oxford University : COVID19

Our current best assumption, as of the 22nd March, is the IFR is approximate 0.19% (95% CI, 0.16 to 0.24).​

Here are all the papers, if you want to take a look.

LitCovid - NCBI - NLM - NIH

Hospitalization cannot be used as a lockdown indicator because it is a lagging indicator. For lockdown decisions, they have to be made a month in advance of there being a problem, for optimal results. We haven't done this is the US yet - I really don't understand why not, though.

Hospitalization is what Imperial College study recommends as the way to make lock down and let off decisions. Obviously you need to take lag into consideration.
 
You know, gearing up to manufacture masks right now isn't a bad idea. Even when this blows over, everyone, and I mean everyone, is going to stockpile a couple of cases of masks in their house from now on. That and toilet paper. I swear the paper industry started the toilet paper thing. ;)

The next highly contagious disease to hit us will be transmitted by kitten pix and lead to constipation. As well as strange cravings for extra-stinky cat food.


"Let's still be a bit cautious before drawing any conclusions".

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. The latest day's numbers are still incomplete, I gather. However:

Verteilung nach Alter und Geschlecht
Die Altersspanne für die positiv getesteten Fälle betrug 0 bis 101 Jahre, im Median 51 Jahre,
das heisst 50% der Fälle waren jünger, 50% älter als 51 Jahre. 49% der Fälle waren Männer,
51% Frauen. Erwachsene waren deutlich mehr betroffen als Kinder. Bei Erwachsenen ab 60
Jahren waren Männer häufiger betroffen als Frauen, bei Erwachsenen unter 50 Jahren Frauen
häufiger als Männer (Abbildung 2).
Im Vergleich zu den Fällen ist die Altersspanne der Todesfälle deutlich höher. Sie lag bei 32
bis 98 Jahren. Im Median waren sie 85 Jahre alt.

Interesting stats from Switzerland. Positively tested cases are aged from 0 to 101 years old [!]. Median is 51. Median age of deceased is 85. Hospitals can still cope here, from what I've heard, but the federal government will begin screening for people who can help with higher caseloads and have acquired immunity.
 
Last edited:
Yes yes, but HOW DOES IT END? This is such an intolerable cliffhanger! ;)
We all die. I skipped to the end.
She seemed to be too scared to say what she really feels at the end. It sounds like she's thinking we should just start digging mass graves...
I think people still don't get that while most younger people survive many still require hospitalization.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: Lessmog
No you can't. Oxford Univ has a paper out which puts it much lower than others. There is genuine dispute about the number from various reputed researchers.

Global Covid-19 Case Fatality Rates - new estimates from Oxford University : COVID19

Our current best assumption, as of the 22nd March, is the IFR is approximate 0.19% (95% CI, 0.16 to 0.24).

We'll see how that holds up. Sounds like that paper could have done with some more peer review. I am confident that the IFR will be far higher than that (about 0.7 to 1.5% would be my guess) for typical populations. Physically it obviously can't be 0.19% or even 0.24%, otherwise South Korea would not have contained their outbreak. The perils of raw data analysis.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doggydogworld
Basically, humanity is screwed, our global economy will be cratered, more novel (possibly pandemic) viri will emerge this fall, no vaccine for a year or 2 for Covid-19.
Humanity not in this for long term, short term solutions all with bad long term outcomes
We are all gonna die eventually, some a lot sooner

so, "eat desert, first" is what I'm hearing you say...