-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion
- Thread starter jjrandorin
- Start date
It wasn't an equivalence, it was that the average compensation for exporting a kWh to the grid under the proposal would be around $0.05/kWh. Two different things.
That wasn't my point.
My point was that if you assume that you will use at least some of your solar behind the meter, then with the $8/kW tax, it doesn't pay to export at all. That assumes you could get a non-export agreement where you don't get the $0.05/kWh exported but don't have to pay the $8/kW tax. I.e. you'd be financially better off just throwing away the kWhs you don't need behind the meter, rather than export them . And as I don't think we've hit the point yet where the marginal kWh exported from residential solar is actually bad for the grid, that's a warped economic incentive to provide.
Cheers, Wayne
I don't understand what you're saying at all. Like I tried to break up your sentence into chunks, but I am having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say.
"... that the capacity payment would be greater than people having no system ..."
PG&E has said rich people with solar and batteries owe more than poor people who don't have it. So yes, I agree with you that the "capacity payment" is greater than people paying retail rates. That's why so many solar-advocates who read the CPUC's proposal are unhappy.
Keep in mind that PG&E has said repeatedly they do not want someone to be able to spend their way to getting around paying their fair share back to PG&E. If someone invests in batteries by paying Tesla, PG&E gets nothing to pay for their fixed costs. PG&E has said repeatedly that even if a rich fat cat spends for their own investment, PG&E wants their $$$$$$$.
"... NEM 3 is not trying to get rid of PV with ESS ..."
Go read the responses from the SEIA, CALSSA, Sunrun, Sunpower, etc. They all believe that the latest NEM 3.0 proposal will significantly discourage future adoption of residential PV+ESS. This is the fallacy that makes me super confused what you're arguing. Of course none of us here on TMC want NEM 3.0 to "get rid of PV and ESS". But you know PG&E wants to get rid of residential PV+ESS because PG&E wants to be the ones to build it instead of Jon Q. Public.
That's fair. Because in reading the proposal it seems to be more equitable, more fair.
It seems to me that what the CPUC is saying is WOOOOPS NEM 2.0 wow ummm it is embarrassing but we gave you all way way too good of a deal. NEM 2 systems are being paid off in 3-5 years. This is costing other ratepayers money. We need to lower this to 15 years and come up with a new plan because we as the CPUC completely botched this NEM 2.0. In lowering this to 15 years you will benefit from your system paying itself off 3-5 times over and we think that this is well a GREAT DEAL still. I agree with them. If you are under NEM 2 be happy you have a great deal even with it reduced to 15 years. If you paid 30k for your system you are going to have a paid off system and 60k in your pocket in 15 years.
Oh ok, I thought you were having some luck actually figuring out how the IOU's payback/ROI calculator worked.
I can't figure out how the hell they came up with the $8 per kW per month. And I have no clue how they came up with their daily household usage pattern to self-gen/export/take. I thought you may have been on to something.
Anyway, I have no clue how they do their ROI math.
Based on those numbers I would not do solar again. My first system had a payback of about 10 years, after 10 years started having issues. Now its in need of repairs. So you finally get your money back, warranty is up, and bam something goes wrong. You are then paying PG&E for a non working, or partially working system. You can pay to fix, that will take another 3 years or so to payback. By then something else will go wrong. You will never get ahead. Roof leak? good luck, you are now never going to break even. 7k to r&r panels for repairs etc. My guess is, if you want to disconnect an old pv system, PG&E will require building permits and plans. There goes a few thousand more when you are sick of paying PG&E for a broken system. There are just too many things that can go wrong. I guess now, best bet is go to harbor freight and buy the ground mount pv system and little inverter for charging our cars
... I was hoping to move in 10 years, maybe I will need to bump that up to 5 when my grandfathering expires.
I agree that NEM1/2 is lop sided. But would you invest in a 15 yr ROI with unexpected outcomes? No one does. Most people don't stay in one home for 15 years. Prove me wrong
Agree, but we don't know if it would be possible to get a non-export agreement.
skepticcyclist
Member
Yep. With inexpensive gas and the cost of upgrading equipment and electrical, it is just not worth it to switch over to electric appliances.
Hmmm IIRC your system was installed before 2020 when PG&E started to deploy NEM2-MT PTO forms. I'm really curious what Vines has since he's like S-Tier-expert-level and his system I believe is NEM2-MT.
Ugh, I really hope PG&E doesn't include ESS when my NEM 2 ends.
skepticcyclist
Member
Is the system size they use based on DC or AC?
I have a 5.98 kW DC panel system. But the micorinverters max AC output is 75% of that at 4.5 kW. They always use microinverters that have a lower voltage than the panels and then add the loss of energy when converting from DC to AC. The max my house can get at any one time under the best ideal conditions based on max microinverter output is 4.5 kW
I have a 5.98 kW DC panel system. But the micorinverters max AC output is 75% of that at 4.5 kW. They always use microinverters that have a lower voltage than the panels and then add the loss of energy when converting from DC to AC. The max my house can get at any one time under the best ideal conditions based on max microinverter output is 4.5 kW
Problem with this is, these systems will be lucky to make it 15 years with no repairs. The life of the system is rated for 25, inverter is 10-15... So with these numbers, at the end of 25 years you paid more than you saved. My system is just a tad over 10 years, I need to have 4 panels replaced. The price of the panels alone are about $300 each. Figure installation, permitting, submitting paperwork to PG&E, another 1-2k. I am sure they are also not taking into account regular cleanings, figure 200-300 a year. God forbid others also have to help pay for a clean environment. A person dishes out 20-40k on a system, currently takes about 5 years to break even. Yet, we are worried about people who pay an extra $200 a year for cleaner power. I could have taken the same money, put into my mortgage, bought another rental, put in the stock market, all of which could have an excellent return on investment. People who went solar, were trying to do something good, now we are the bad guys. Want to change it, fine don't mess with existing solar customers. Let us finish our grandfathering with what we were promised. 5 years cut off my grandfathering pretty much removes all profit for my investments.
The rulemaking language doesn't say, but everything the PoCo typically does is AC.
I have never seen DC listed on any SGIP, PTO, or other solar document. They usually ask for the inverter rating for the PV and ESS.
I agree NEM 2.0 incentive was too generous with the buy back pricing. They are fixing that but also now penalizing solar owners with the flat rate per kW charge. The IOU are trying to recoup lost revenue because we are using less energy. I think there is a big difference between reducing incentives and charging these fees.
I certainty am not going to end up with $60k in my pocket on NEM 2.0 for 15 years. I would be curious who would?
Go read the report. Your results are not typical. NEM 2 is going to be changed and CPUC believes they have the right to lower NEM 2 to 15 years from 20.
Have you done the math on what kind of savings you are having on your electric bills? While you might not have $60k in your pocket you might save $60k over 15 years.
Similar threads
- Locked
