CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

[h2ofun]

I dunno man, when California's grid was about to collapse on itself this Summer, my social feeds were bombarded with examples of EV drivers charging around 5pm. So the folks that like to post dumb-azz anti-Biden and anti-Obama memes were snarking about blaming EVs for loading the grid at the worst time causing all of us to suffer greatly.

I doubt this article will convince an anti-EV-person that overall EVs actually help the grid by distributing the volumetric pricing across a lot more off-peak MWh.

Looks like the second PD was mostly followed, and the vote happens tomorrow on the final version.

Some big wins for residential solar:
No Solar Tax
No retroactive changes to NEM 1 and 2
Also some good things for commercial solar that we will all read about, assuming it is all finalized tomorrow as written.

Boy I hope that solar tax is gone!!!!!

 

[holeydonut]

Looks like the second PD was mostly followed, and the vote happens tomorrow on the final version.

Some big wins for residential solar:
No Solar Tax
No retroactive changes to NEM 1 and 2
Also some EDIT: not terrible things for commercial solar that we will all read about, assuming it is all finalized tomorrow as written.

@Redhill_qik will appreciate that the ACC rate remains intact.

That’s 24 different export rates each hour and weekday/end rates. Each month has new rates. Your batteries can export at any time to get the prevailing ACC rate.

576 rates per year lololol. That black and white bill will be so cool he’ll intentionally leave NEM 2.0 to join 3.0 just to get the huge azz bill.

 

[dahaz22]

Tesla scheduling a site survey till January next year.
I doubt I will have the system installed before that date, specially with these install timelines.
Assuming NEM3.0 passes tomorrow, if dont get PTO by April 13th 2023, I will be SoL?
Can Tesla summit the paperwork early?

 

[sunwarriors]

Tesla scheduling a site survey till January next year.
I doubt I will have the system installed before that date, specially with these install timelines.
Assuming NEM3.0 passes tomorrow, if dont get PTO by April 13th 2023, I will be SoL?
Can Tesla summit the paperwork early?

You can read some of the NEM3.0 threads, but I think you can file paperwork to be grandfathered in. However, I've read some companies don't file until it passes inspection which is closer to the end of a project. You may have to fight them to file it for you. If the company wants the job, they probably won't mind doing this, but we know the longevity of Tesla solar advisors that they may not care since they may not be there long.

Edit: I found this recent post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/zm31oi/_/j0a5zod

Depending on your area, Tesla is really hit or miss. Some folks have super fast installs/PTO. Tesla has recently pulled out of some areas so you may want to double check if you're affected by that. If you can't even get a site survey till next year, they may have more jobs than they care to do and if you have non-standard stuff (like metal roof), they'll cancel your job and you have to start over. You can bet there will be a rush of installs before NEM3.0 from anyone not on solar yet and uses a decent amount of power.

I did my install last year and was worried with NEM3.0 even back then and figured it wasn't worth the risk (for me) because if I'm stuck with NEM3.0, I might as well just not even bother with solar at all. We should see finalized terms today maybe. I hope it's actually the 2nd interation which I have less to argue with.

As bad as NEM3.0 is, I think not having NEM1.0/2.0 upset/file lawsuits or rise up will allow the CPUC to get away with more since in my mind, those people will just start fresh in 5-20 years from now (or move out of state, go off-grid, dead already, etc).

 

[Redhill_qik]

@Redhill_qik will appreciate that the ACC rate remains intact.

That’s 24 different export rates each hour and weekday/end rates. Each month has new rates. Your batteries can export at any time to get the prevailing ACC rate.

576 rates per year lololol. That black and white bill will be so cool he’ll intentionally leave NEM 2.0 to join 3.0 just to get the huge azz bill.

I'm definitely not switching before my 20 year NEM 2.0 expires, but I do plan on reaching out to anyone that I hear is on NEM 3.0 to get their statements and annual true-up. Should be very interesting to see how this is actually implemented.

 

[sunwarriors]

https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/zms3xf

 

[holeydonut]

Whoa, the guy is saying the latest and greatest NEM 3.0 is "too extreme" still? I thought getting rid of the obscene monthly per kW-AC fee was huge. And they let the old NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0 20 years persist. So what does this guy think we need?

I agree the ACC rate glide pathing is kind of bogus... but this guy doesn't really explain why they're bogus or what improvements he thinks we could get to the next version of NEM 3.0.

 

[sunwarriors]

Whoa, the guy is saying the latest and greatest NEM 3.0 is "too extreme" still? I thought getting rid of the obscene monthly per kW-AC fee was huge. And they let the old NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0 20 years persist. So what does this guy think we need?

I agree the ACC rate glide pathing is kind of bogus... but this guy doesn't really explain why they're bogus or what improvements he thinks we could get to the next version of NEM 3.0.

This is why I think something like this will probably pass since as we all know, NEM3.0 can't be just as good as NEM1.0 nor NEM2.0. No solar tax, no adjustment to 20 year grandfathering (I'd probably file a lawsuit on that alone), makes me sorta shutup honestly.

Glide path would be nice, but I think for future solar installs, battery is sorta a requirement if they go 10x difference in price or something $0.35 peak vs. $0.04 credit when it comes to NEM.

From the notes, call, everyone is complaining, but that's sorta to be expected.

I don't think this will kill off solar completely in CA, but lower/longer ROI since you need a battery and people on NEM3.0 will probably never generate enough with TOU and solar alone I think so it's probably going to stretch that ROI to long periods with how bad the export is (if there is even an ROI). But since I already assume 0 ROI on battery, I tend to not even look at that even though I've never had an outage yet.

 

[tfan2018]

Installed my system in 2021, good for 19 more years in NEM 2.0. by the time 19 years has passed it will be NEM 7.0 and who knows what that will look like!

 

[RayB]

I installed a system in 2007. Adding additional system now, with 2 PowerWalls. I guess that means I’ll be on NEM 3 in 2027 since my 20 years is almost up.

 

[aesculus]

I installed a system in 2007. Adding additional system now, with 2 PowerWalls. I guess that means I’ll be on NEM 3 in 2027 since my 20 years is almost up.

I don't know how they will attack the combining of multiple systems with different PTO dates. I had a NEM 1 system for three years and then installed a NEM2 solar. They made me combine them both under NEM2 and I think restart the clock to that date. I have since installed two more NEM 2 systems over a 3 year period so it will be interesting to see how they deal with that. The last PTO had the combined solar of three systems plus the PWs, all on NEM 2.

 

[RKCRLR]

I don't know how they will attack the combining of multiple systems with different PTO dates. I had a NEM 1 system for three years and then installed a NEM2 solar. They made me combine them both under NEM2 and I think restart the clock to that date. I have since installed two more NEM 2 systems over a 3 year period so it will be interesting to see how they deal with that. The last PTO had the combined solar of three systems plus the PWs, all on NEM 2.

I went through the same thing where I installed my first system in 2009 under NEM1 and my second system in 2019. I had to combine both systems under NEM2 unless I paid for a second meter install to keep the old system under NEM1 and have the new system under NEM2. Both PG&E and my installer verbally told me that my NEM2 grandfathering would be reset to the install date of the second system. However, that didn't seem consistent with other information below:

However, this was still ambiguous so I asked PG&E for when my NEM2 grandfathering would expire in writing. They still insisted the date was reset during the second install but refused to give me something in writing so I filed a CPUC complaint. I got an email from PG&E stating:

"I left you a voicemail explaining the purpose of this email. Per your request you are inquiring on when your NEM2 will expire. Your account falls under our NEM2 Tariff. When you upgraded your system in 2019 you were put on NEM2 because of the size of your system. This makes the Legacy Provision applicable to your account. The 20 year date begins the date of your original PTO, per our records that date is 12/17/2009. If the tariffs do not change then your expiration date would be 20 years from that date. We do apologize if you were given incorrect information, we will be sure to investigate the information that was provided to you and take the appropriate actions to assure it does not happen in the future."

It would be interesting to see if someone in a similar situation calls PG&E to see what they say now.

 

[sunwarriors]

Looks like it passed 5-0. I think from everything I've seen, adding future systems make it fall under the original NEM1.0 install date.

Best case is someone ripped out the old, and put in the new and restart the clock, but not really possible realistically. I have read if you get a completely separate meter, then 1 can be NEM1.0, 1 can be NEM2.0, but always do your own research on this.

I assume a lot of people maybe affected so there should be a fair number of folks running into this.

California pulls the plug on rooftop solar

The Public Utilities Commission approved Net Energy Metering 3.0, slashing payments for sending rooftop solar production to the grid. New rooftop solar projects are now considered uneconomical without an attached battery.

pv-magazine-usa.com

 

[aesculus]

It would be interesting to see if someone in a similar situation calls PG&E to see what they say now.

I am going to do "Don't Ask Don't Tell". If they state the first system (2015) expires then, it's only 2.5 kW. The others are 2019 and later so that is close enough to twenty years I won't worry about it.

Now if they try to claim my entire system is from 2015, then we will have a problem.

 

[RKCRLR]

I am going to do "Don't Ask Don't Tell". If they state the first system (2015) expires then, it's only 2.5 kW. The others are 2019 and later so that is close enough to twenty years I won't worry about it.

Now if they try to claim my entire system is from 2015, then we will have a problem.

The problem is they can't separate the output of the different systems without separate meters so all systems with a single meter need to be on the same NEM.

 

[h2ofun]

Yea, I am happy!!!!

 

[aesculus]

The problem is they can't separate the output of the different systems without separate meters so all systems with a single meter need to be on the same NEM.

Right. That is why they forced my existing NEM1 onto NEM2. It was actually a good thing for lots of reasons I won't go into now.

Anyway my issue will be what DATE they try to claim my system as the install date. Except for my 2015 date, the others (2019,2020) I can live with those dates as they are close enough to 2023.

 

[Zabe]

Does adding batteries to a NEM 2 solar system post NEM 3 force a change over to NEM 3?

 

[miimura]

I am going to do "Don't Ask Don't Tell". If they state the first system (2015) expires then, it's only 2.5 kW. The others are 2019 and later so that is close enough to twenty years I won't worry about it.

Now if they try to claim my entire system is from 2015, then we will have a problem.

They don't have to claim that your entire system is from 2015. They just have to claim that your NEM guarantee started in 2015. That is what the Tariffs say and anyone who said otherwise was just making stuff up.

I signed a contract for more solar on November 30, 2022, 10 years and 3 days after I signed the contract for my first solar system on the same house. As long as this new solar gets PTO before April 14, 2023, I will move to NEM 2.0 from NEM 1.0 and then to whatever tariff is in effect in December 2032.

 

[RKCRLR]

Does adding batteries to a NEM 2 solar system post NEM 3 force a change over to NEM 3?

Adding batteries didn't change NEM status under NEM 1 and NEM 2 if you already had solar. I doubt that is any different under NEM 3.