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CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

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interestingly enough, I took that $.16/kWh that PG&E charges CCA customers for "delivery" and used one of my summer months usage (prior to solar). Got $180.


Assuming Zabe is charging his Powerwall and TOU shifting, he is required to be on an EV plan (probably EV2A). Under this plan, the transmission costs vary depending on peak/shoulder/off-peak.

Transmission under EV2-A goes up to $0.34 per kWh during peak time in the summer. He's not paying his "fair share" of having the grid available at peak time since he's phased his much cheaper transmission costs (from charging during off-peak) to power his home during peak. If he wanted to be "fair" about this, he'd go out to his main disconnect and open it during peak time to ensure the expensive peak grid wasn't available to him every day.

But as we've determined, asking Zabe or asking h2ofun to "pay their fair share" is the red herring. Nobody is paying their "fair share", because the total of all the shares being paid is horribly mis-managed.
 
Nobody is paying their "fair share", because the total of all the shares being paid is horribly mis-managed.
What else would you expect from an investor owned monopoly? I am usually not for government run... But this is a case where I think local governments should control their grid. My understanding is, PG&E sets a very high price if anyone wants to buy them out for a specific area so not likely a local government is going to want to do that.
 
Assuming Zabe is charging his Powerwall and TOU shifting, he is required to be on an EV plan (probably EV2A). Under this plan, the transmission costs vary depending on peak/shoulder/off-peak.

Transmission under EV2-A goes up to $0.34 per kWh during peak time in the summer. He's not paying his "fair share" of having the grid available at peak time since he's phased his much cheaper transmission costs (from charging during off-peak) to power his home during peak. If he wanted to be "fair" about this, he'd go out to his main disconnect and open it during peak time to ensure the expensive peak grid wasn't available to him every day.

But as we've determined, asking Zabe or asking h2ofun to "pay their fair share" is the red herring. Nobody is paying their "fair share", because the total of all the shares being paid is horribly mis-managed.
Now apply that logic to solar customers. I know you are going to claim /s but you just destroyed your own arguments. Thanks for proving the point.
 
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Now apply that logic to solar customers. I know you are going to claim /s but you just destroyed your own arguments. Thanks for proving the point.


Are you not reading the quote? I think it’s rubbish to ask you to pay a “fair share”. I want the ious to be well run before asking anyone to do stupid behavior or pay more.
 
Reading the last couple pages of this discussion, it occurred to me that they could probably make the $8/kW/mo. a Minimum Charge and leave the rest of the NEM Tariff alone. That would address one major problem I have with the fixed monthly charge for solar customers because people with small systems will still be paying "grid charges" with their significant volumetric energy charges. If they are above the new Minimum, they won't incur any additional cost.
 
Reading the last couple pages of this discussion, it occurred to me that they could probably make the $8/kW/mo. a Minimum Charge and leave the rest of the NEM Tariff alone. That would address one major problem I have with the fixed monthly charge for solar customers because people with small systems will still be paying "grid charges" with their significant volumetric energy charges. If they are above the new Minimum, they won't incur any additional cost.
Might be fine if you have a small system, but with my large one, it would be 3000 per year just to have, no way
 
Reading the last couple pages of this discussion, it occurred to me that they could probably make the $8/kW/mo. a Minimum Charge and leave the rest of the NEM Tariff alone. That would address one major problem I have with the fixed monthly charge for solar customers because people with small systems will still be paying "grid charges" with their significant volumetric energy charges. If they are above the new Minimum, they won't incur any additional cost.

With exports being near worthless at 5-6c and the fixed charged based on system size, as mentioned by h2ofun, large solar systems are going to be a bad ROI moving forward since your fixed costs are so high now and it's an ongoing monthly burn even after your 100k cost.

I still think they shouldn't budge on the 20 > 15 years and NEM3.0 will still kill solar in CA so it's almost like, what's the point now already if this proposal will stop all installs after it's implemented?

Add in the thousands or tens of thousands of job losses, solar company closures and they'll have to backtrack to make it more enticing again which meant NEM3.0 is a waste of time with how it's proposed.
 
With exports being near worthless at 5-6c and the fixed charged based on system size, as mentioned by h2ofun, large solar systems are going to be a bad ROI moving forward since your fixed costs are so high now and it's an ongoing monthly burn even after your 100k cost.

I still think they shouldn't budge on the 20 > 15 years and NEM3.0 will still kill solar in CA so it's almost like, what's the point now already if this proposal will stop all installs after it's implemented?

Add in the thousands or tens of thousands of job losses, solar company closures and they'll have to backtrack to make it more enticing again which meant NEM3.0 is a waste of time with how it's proposed.
I think the 15 year truncation will be reversed by law suits if it actually goes through. That still leaves people with large NEM 2 systems with a significant decision when their term does actually end. Who knows, maybe 10 years from now the situation will be completely different. I am still hoping that the CPUC will see how ridiculous the decision by the administrative law judge is and implement something less extreme.
 
I was off by only a bit, using PG&E financials it’s $166 a month. Based on 5 million electric customers, divided by 10 billion in costs other than electricity, divided by 12. For PG&E, cost of electricity per thier financials is 22% of the total cost.

I am sure plenty of people have a total bill under $166 a month, but there are obviously plenty of others who have a larger bill.
This number appears to be ignoring the commercial customers. It is the same grid for both users, do it would be inaccurate for only residential to be paying those costs.

Pre-solar my electric portion wouldn't get higher than $120 except during the summer, so the $166/month can't be right especially considering how many of those residential customers will be low usage apartments and condos. PG&E would have been running at a loss then weren't.
 
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Who knows, maybe 10 years from now the situation will be completely different.

I suppose in 10 years or after this passes, laws can always be changed when a new governor or new CPUC head (that's already happening) starts:

Disable javascript to read:
Sacramento, CA — A senior advisor to Governor Gavin Newsom is in line to become the new leader of the influential California Public Utilities Commission. The Governor has nominated Alice Reynolds to replace Marybel Batjer. The five-member commission regulates utility companies, telecommunications, rail, water and transportation companies. Batjer has led the commission since 2019 and is retiring at the end of the year. Reynolds has been a senior advisor on energy policy for both Governor Newsom and former Governor Jerry Brown. She also was the Deputy Secretary for Law Enforcement and General Counsel for the California Environmental Protection Agency from 2011 to 2017. Newsom states, “As my lead energy policy expert, Alice has been indispensable in our work to move California toward a cleaner, affordable and reliable energy future.” The position requires legislative confirmation. The salary is around $230,000 annually.
 
Article on this from a solar builder mag, there are various other articles linked from this article:

 
Article on this from a solar builder mag, there are various other articles linked from this article:

Is this a change in the proposed rules, the correct interpretation of the proposed rules, or a mistake in the article?

  • To secure NEM 2.0 grandfathering, customers must have a signed installation, lease, or PPA project contract by the sunset date (May 27 as currently scheduled).
  • If the interconnection application was submitted prior to the final decision, the customer would be eligible for 20 years of grandfathering. If the application is submitted between the final decision and the sunset date, only 15 years of grandfathering would apply.
 
Fairness, woke arguments, blah blah, it's all about protecting the bloated IOUs monopolies. Math shows that nobody should invest in solar once NEM 3 comes into being, which is why we will see NEM 4.0.

Real solution to this mess would be for PG&E et al to control their costs, which obviously will never happen.
 
Is this a change in the proposed rules, the correct interpretation of the proposed rules, or a mistake in the article?

  • To secure NEM 2.0 grandfathering, customers must have a signed installation, lease, or PPA project contract by the sunset date (May 27 as currently scheduled).
  • If the interconnection application was submitted prior to the final decision, the customer would be eligible for 20 years of grandfathering. If the application is submitted between the final decision and the sunset date, only 15 years of grandfathering would apply.
I saw that too. Thinking it is a mistake in the article
 
Reading the last couple pages of this discussion, it occurred to me that they could probably make the $8/kW/mo. a Minimum Charge and leave the rest of the NEM Tariff alone. That would address one major problem I have with the fixed monthly charge for solar customers because people with small systems will still be paying "grid charges" with their significant volumetric energy charges. If they are above the new Minimum, they won't incur any additional cost.


You're pretty close to the original CALSSA and SEIA proposals (at least in the near term) where they wanted a gradual glide path; and basically the imposition of minimums to the extent a future solar homeowner would have to start paying that elusive "fair share" but doing so in a way that wasn't a huge shock to the current residential solar sales-pitch in California.

The solar-rights groups have agreed that the NEM 3.0 policies should address the fixed costs problem and should require a homeowner to "pay more" of their fair share. And the moment CALSSA and SEIA conceded these issues, the IOU's ran with it. Unfortunately if you concede an inch to expert negotiators, they will claim a mile. And even worse, the CPUC is willing to get behind this IOU BS, and is ready to hand that mile over to the IOU's.

One thing that really frustrates me is how CALSSA have responded to the latest CPUC proposal. They keep repeating their own broken-record arguments that clearly aren't resonating with the CPUC. I want to know what was CALSSA's strategy for all this. Concede points, then hope the CPUC would act "reasonably" to help Residential Solar. On what planet did CALSSA think this was a winning approach?

From the latest Exparte with CALSSA and the CPUC:
In both meetings, Mr. Heavner and Ms. Unger expressed
that the proposed decision would effectively eliminate the opportunity for most customers to
install economically viable solar and storage systems
. They urged that the decision be revised to
eliminate the solar fee, create a glidepath for reduced export compensation, provide greater
certainty for the full term of eligibility, and not change previous decisions related to existing net
metered customers.

That part in bold is literally what the IOUs and the CPUC want. The monopolies and the regulators do not want homeowners to install new meaningful systems under NEM 3.0. California now has a glut of solar, they don't want Jane-Homeowner to put a new array on their roof.

The utility grade solar market has wildly proliferated in the last decade due to the absurd subsidizes thrown at them to bring massive production online. NEM 3.0 says noon time solar is now only $0.03 to $0.05 per kWh on the avoided cost calculator. This pittance is because the utility producers have massive subsidizes to flood the market with solar. These producers don't come close to paying $8 per month per kW for their exports and fixed costs. Hell, it's likely the opposite; the utility scale solar get massive kick backs through those above-market PPAs and guaranteed market to pay for production.

These mega-scale solar profiting to over-produce, causing the marginal value of a residential solar export to be only $0.03-$0.05. Economics works; supply will intersect with marginal cost at scale. But what's unfortunate is the PPAs that PG&E has with these producers guarantees the IOU pays above-market rates around $0.20 per kWh to get some of this energy regardless of the market price. Then these producers pay $0.01 per kWh back to the grid to cover substations and fixed costs. Big frickin' whoop... the massive profit is going to the utility producer.

California homeowners are different; they didn't build their solar for a profit motive. The homeowners aren't the one causing massive inefficiencies in the energy market. And yet the California homeowner is the one being blamed for class warfare. You gotta hand it to the IOU's they developed and executed a brilliant game plan.

Zabe is right; there is a problem of too much solar in California. But the problem isn't due to Residential NEM. Unfortunately the CPUC is using residential NEM to fix the issue created by bad policy on the commercial-side. The CPUC wants to throttle new residential production while also asking homeowners to pay massively more fixed costs over time. After all, the CPUC cannot be bothered to ask the large-scale producers and non-residential producers to give up some profits.

CALSSA needs to start barking about how $20Bn of IOU waste isn't going to be solved by billions of extra fees collected from California Homeowners. This whole class warfare thing is the worst smokescreen, and CALSSA seems to be willing to battle in the rich vs poor fog.
 
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You're pretty close to the original CALSSA and SEIA proposals (at least in the near term) where they wanted a gradual glide path; and basically the imposition of minimums to the extent a future solar homeowner would have to start paying that elusive "fair share" but doing so in a way that wasn't a huge shock to the current residential solar sales-pitch in California.

The solar-rights groups have agreed that the NEM 3.0 policies should address the fixed costs problem and should require a homeowner to "pay more" of their fair share. And the moment CALSSA and SEIA conceded these issues, the IOU's ran with it. Unfortunately if you concede an inch to expert negotiators, they will claim a mile. And even worse, the CPUC is willing to get behind this IOU BS, and is ready to hand that mile over to the IOU's.

One thing that really frustrates me is how CALSSA have responded to the latest CPUC proposal. They keep repeating their own broken-record arguments that clearly aren't resonating with the CPUC. I want to know what was CALSSA's strategy for all this. Concede points, then hope the CPUC would act "reasonably" to help Residential Solar. On what planet did CALSSA think this was a winning approach?

From the latest Exparte with CALSSA and the CPUC:


That part in bold is literally what the IOUs and the CPUC want. The monopolies and the regulators do not want homeowners to install new meaningful systems under NEM 3.0. California now has a glut of solar, they don't want Jane-Homeowner to put a new array on their roof.

The utility grade solar market has wildly proliferated in the last decade due to the absurd subsidizes thrown at them to bring massive production online. NEM 3.0 says noon time solar is now only $0.03 to $0.05 per kWh on the avoided cost calculator. This pittance is because the utility producers have massive subsidizes to flood the market with solar. These producers don't come close to paying $8 per month per kW for their exports and fixed costs. Hell, it's likely the opposite; the utility scale solar get massive kick backs through those above-market PPAs and guaranteed market to pay for production.

These mega-scale solar profiting to over-produce, causing the marginal value of a residential solar export to be only $0.03-$0.05. Economics works; supply will intersect with marginal cost at scale. But what's unfortunate is the PPAs that PG&E has with these producers guarantees the IOU pays above-market rates around $0.20 per kWh to get some of this energy regardless of the market price. Then these producers pay $0.01 per kWh back to the grid to cover substations and fixed costs. Big frickin' whoop... the massive profit is going to the utility producer.

California homeowners are different; they didn't build their solar for a profit motive. The homeowners aren't the one causing massive inefficiencies in the energy market. And yet the California homeowner is the one being blamed for class warfare. You gotta hand it to the IOU's they developed and executed a brilliant game plan.

Zabe is right; there is a problem of too much solar in California. But the problem isn't due to Residential NEM. Unfortunately the CPUC is using residential NEM to fix the issue created by bad policy on the commercial-side. The CPUC wants to throttle new residential production while also asking homeowners to pay massively more fixed costs over time. After all, the CPUC cannot be bothered to ask the large-scale producers and non-residential producers to give up some profits.

CALSSA needs to start barking about how $20Bn of IOU waste isn't going to be solved by billions of extra fees collected from California Homeowners. This whole class warfare thing is the worst smokescreen, and CALSSA seems to be willing to battle in the rich vs poor fog.


As someone else brought up, if NEM3.0 is a bad financial deal, no one would sign up (or very little) for NEM3.0 and the IOUs still wouldn't be getting these fixed fees anytime soon anyways.

For people with large systems and very high fixed cost under it, they may leave the state or simply remove solar to avoid the fixed charges and just pay their normal energy bill monthly as that may cost less without the headache or unknown of what the fee will be later, especially if it seems like it will change yearly and any savings are negligible. Add in broken pieces out of warranty and it becomes not worth fixing at that point.

I agree this is for the IOUs to kill solar, but killing off all the jobs will lead to the 'poor' solar installers/companies protesting this so that's probably a good thing. The work will dry up instantly overnight like other states and per one of the articles, doesn't lead to any path to sustainable solar (or any solar anymore) moving forward to hit lower emissions energy policy.
 
As someone else brought up, if NEM3.0 is a bad financial deal, no one would sign up (or very little) for NEM3.0 and the IOUs still wouldn't be getting these fixed fees anytime soon anyways.

For people with large systems and very high fixed cost under it, they may leave the state or simply remove solar to avoid the fixed charges and just pay their normal energy bill monthly as that may cost less without the headache or unknown of what the fee will be later, especially if it seems like it will change yearly and any savings are negligible. Add in broken pieces out of warranty and it becomes not worth fixing at that point.

I agree this is for the IOUs to kill solar, but killing off all the jobs will lead to the 'poor' solar installers/companies protesting this so that's probably a good thing. The work will dry up instantly overnight like other states and per one of the articles, doesn't lead to any path to sustainable solar (or any solar anymore) moving forward to hit lower emissions energy policy.
Yep, I am one of those fools with large systems.