Looks like a NEM 3.0 homeowner better get used to paying a boatload of money each month in fixed costs and import fees for having put solar on their roof ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion
- Thread starter jjrandorin
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Looks like a NEM 3.0 homeowner better get used to paying a boatload of money each month in fixed costs and import fees for having put solar on their roof ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
You made me look. I am still on EVA but NEM 2. True up is end of July. So far I have used a net 3600 kWh and last months bill (December) was $428. But ...
I broke even then (I owe $10.28). How you ask? The beauty of PWs and EVA time shifting. I only had one month where I was an energy producer. But I get back 55 cents per kWh during peak and we do about everything we can to drive power during off peak at 14 cents. Plus I did not drive much the later half of 2021. So when you fold in no gasoline charges I am way up front. Right now I am on the hook for $150 of NBCs but that is NBD to me and I still have at least 2 more heating months to go.
I won't know for sure but my 10.5 kW solar, 2 PWs and EVA seem to be working out. BTW I also just shifted to a new variable speed heat pump from the 35 year old one (4 ton) and I am going to replace my 2 ton too. And I guess I did have a bit of a cheat because my 4 ton was off line in July and Aug so I had limited cooling costs. But we did not die, so that is something.
I am going to miss EVA when they kick me off in about 3 years.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
A local story popped up in my Google news feed about the Gilroy Fire Department getting a $100,000 grant to install solar + ESS to reduce costs (total project is $125,000). Interesting tidbits from the staff report
Also, government agencies are also worried about PG&E price increases.
There isn't any mention of the actual system size, but based on the yield, location and roof orientations, I think this is around a 27 kW array.
Hey, it is energy savings and not ROI.
Also, government agencies are also worried about PG&E price increases.But, what about the reduced transmission and distribution fees that will raise the rates for the children and seniors?
There isn't any mention of the actual system size, but based on the yield, location and roof orientations, I think this is around a 27 kW array.
Would anyone spend their own money on something with a 30 year ROI? Not me, and this does not assume things like stuff failsA local story popped up in my Google news feed about the Gilroy Fire Department getting a $100,000 grant to install solar + ESS to reduce costs (total project is $125,000). Interesting tidbits from the staff report
Hey, it is energy savings and not ROI.
But, what about the reduced transmission and distribution fees that will raise the rates for the children and seniors?
There isn't any mention of the actual system size, but based on the yield, location and roof orientations, I think this is around a 27 kW array.
I found the project bid details (starts on page 34) and it is 24.51kW array composed of 57 panels Hanwha Q.PEAK DUA L-68.2 430W for $93,333 or $3.81/kw. The ESS is a single 4kw/10 kWh battery with a price of $25,558 (wow that's expensive) and for some reason they get a SGIP payment of $2,700 taking it down to $22,858.
The bid indicates a payback period of 11.5 years, but since SVCE (my CCA) is giving them a grant of $100,000 it is really less than 3 years.
Why would anyone spend their own money on a game where your opponent is allowed to change the rules in the middle of the game? As an example:
Some guys at Costco tried to get me to buy into solar the other day. I told them that if they can get PG&E to give me a promise in writing that:
1. The NEM rules won't change (they already do this), AND
2. My rate plan hours (peak and off-peak) won't change, AND
3. If there are any adjustments to my rates, the peak and off-peak rates can be scaled for inflation but they must both scale together, such that say 1 kW sold during peak time is equivalent to 0.6 kW drawn during peak time, regardless of the absolute numbers involved
...for the entire duration of the NEM contract, then I will consider it. That shut them up pretty quickly.
I should point out that even for people on NEM1, who have been essentially allowed to use the grid as a 100% efficient battery, were never protected against the complete elimination of the tiered rate plan itself.
This business of discontinuing rate plans and forcing people onto new ones during the duration of the contract has to stop, or I will not install solar.
In the meantime, you missed out on great opportunities and savings if you would have added solar under NEM2. Even though they may shorten GF to 15 years, everyone on NEM2 would have saved significant money
Agreed. My savings to date have paid off my panels, and even though I was forced onto EV2-A I am still saving an awful lot of money vs. using the grid entirely. Plus, I own the system so if I decide I want to do some kind of power segregation in the future, I have options.
It's a frustrating situation with the utilities but it has been very easy to make the ROI work until now.
Yep, which is why I added so much solar. was talking to the wife last night. we LOVE our mini split heat pumps, running from the solar. My house is a nice 68 to 74 degrees, depending on which room we are in since each room in a zone now. Love in the summer we can keep like 72 to 74. AND, I have a negative energy bill for my house at 99% electric! 15 years, I may not even still be alive.
Possibly, but I also didn't miss out on the ROI from investing the money in something else. That part of the equation often gets overlooked. And in any case, I think whatever the calculated payback period is, you should get an agreement in writing from the utility that they're not going to change anything that affects the payback period until the payback period ends. I'm not putting money into something with an 7-8 year payback period if I only have assurances that PG&E isn't going to change anything for the first 3 years.
My payback is slightly less than 5 years.
ROI over 15 years is 21%. ROI over 10 years is 17%
I'm comfortable knowing that very few investments have that return
I'm sort of waiting for the IOUs back up plan. Maybe its going to be "waiters, or anyone who works nights, has to kick in 5 cents a square foot, as their lack of A/C use from 4 to 9 is shifting costs to the poor."
It would be just as accurate as dinging rooftop solar, but somehow it probably does not have the same "legs."
The subsidy the IOUs don't like is any reduction of the wildly profitable peak rates. I looked at SCE's just for laughs and its incredible. Its true, rooftop solar under NEM reduces profits because that customer gets some credits for hours that otherwise are the most profitable for the IOU.
But, as I said, anyone who has a job from say, 3 to 11 is also not buying alot of peak energy if they are not home. That customer is just as unprofitable to the IOU as a solar customer, but not nearly as nice a target.
If they knock the credit down as far as they are asking, the subsidy is gone. The additional charge per kw installed is just pure greed.
It would be just as accurate as dinging rooftop solar, but somehow it probably does not have the same "legs."
The subsidy the IOUs don't like is any reduction of the wildly profitable peak rates. I looked at SCE's just for laughs and its incredible. Its true, rooftop solar under NEM reduces profits because that customer gets some credits for hours that otherwise are the most profitable for the IOU.
But, as I said, anyone who has a job from say, 3 to 11 is also not buying alot of peak energy if they are not home. That customer is just as unprofitable to the IOU as a solar customer, but not nearly as nice a target.
If they knock the credit down as far as they are asking, the subsidy is gone. The additional charge per kw installed is just pure greed.
I think the State needs to decide if Residential Solar is beneficial or not. I cannot imagine why it is not beneficial especially if paired with battery. So if it is beneficial, there has to be an incentive for homeowners to install. There's no question that NEM2 was a great incentive. Was it too far? I'm not sure. I would not have invested if the ROI was greater than 10 years. It would be borderline for me at 7 to 8 years. I think full on "greenies" might go for 10 year plus, but I suspect those people have already gone solar. So we are left with "marginal greenies". They aren't going to invest unless there is a financial incentive.
So what is the best way to pay fair share of the grid. If I look at CCA rate comparisons to PG&E, I see a delivery charge of $.16 to $.174/kWh depending on the rate plan. Why a delivery charge would vary by Plan (except for CARE) is beyond me. Why not charge Solar that delivery charge both ways? Subtract it from the the NEM credit, but I think the NEM credit would still need to be at or close to retail to make the system financially viable and of course get rid of the fixed fee.
So what is the best way to pay fair share of the grid. If I look at CCA rate comparisons to PG&E, I see a delivery charge of $.16 to $.174/kWh depending on the rate plan. Why a delivery charge would vary by Plan (except for CARE) is beyond me. Why not charge Solar that delivery charge both ways? Subtract it from the the NEM credit, but I think the NEM credit would still need to be at or close to retail to make the system financially viable and of course get rid of the fixed fee.
Lol Zabe is going to use you as an example of how you're not paying your fair share... the IOUs want you to have a 0 ROI to be "fair to everybody."
The ROI for my installation is basically zero under NEM 2.0 since Powerwalls cost so much and I didn't have Tesla's cutthroat pricing.
Personally I just hated PG&E so much that I would rather pay a boatload to anybody not named PG&E. I feel not paying P&GE has an intrinsic benefit lolol. Oh, and running the ACs at 5pm and doing a load of laundry at 7pm is nice.
Edit, I miss the good ol' days when Sunrun would sell people solar by making them dislike PG&E hahaha. The psychology was to convince customers that "PG&E was punishing them for using the grid." But in reality do we really need convincing that PG&E sucks? Fun times.
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I agree that NEM2 is very favorable to Solar. However, it was meant to be to encourage solar. NEM3 (as currently proposed) will discourage solar and kill the residential market. Is that what we (you) want? If we (you) still want residential solar, then what is a fair payback? To me, it has to be <10 years.Looks like he used himself as an example
I look at it like this:
1. The grid power I buy should be priced like anyone without solar - fine.
2. The solar I use to power my house should not have any tax or fee. Like many have said this is not much different than installing insulation, cutting back on use, etc.
3. For the solar I export, I'm ok with paying a delivery fee. But, I cannot see how reducing the credit to $.05/kWh will provide a payback. Subtract the Delivery Fee from Retail rate and I'm good. Although I have not done the math, I suspect that will result in an ROI <10years.
The IOUs pushed for a total gut of residential solar, but will still be very happy if the end result is export at $0.05 and import at $0.25. That would still diminish the value of solar quite a bit, and push folks toward residential storage, which also benefits the IOUs (less peaker plants to fire up at great cost). Even then, one would have to be to self consume quite a bit to make it worth it. If you don't use much electricity during the day, and say self consume only 25% of your production (without PWs), the investment would be positive over 20 years, but barely so. I would be surprised if residential solar is still worth it when it's all said and done.
Merrill
Merrill
I agree with you, I would spend $10,000 just not to pay Pacific Graft and Extortion $100.
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