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CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

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Pretty much all solar/storage systems have 10-year warranties at least. Many components have 15-25 year warranties.

So hopefully you break even financially before 10-years and things start breaking out of warranty.

FWIW, my system is coming up on 12 years now without any issues.
The warranty is only good as the company behind it. If NEM 3 goes through as currently worded I'd expect to see some solar companies go under.

The company that manufactured and installed my solar system in 2009 was purchased by a Chinese company and is no longer in the residential solar business (their main focus is now crypto mining). They discontinued the website that I used for production data. Even though I have a 30 year warranty on my panels I suspect I would never be able to get any warranty coverage from them even if they are still in business at that time.

Some people don't realize that they are taking on risks like this when they invest in a solar generation system.
 
Pretty much all solar/storage systems have 10-year warranties at least. Many components have 15-25 year warranties.

So hopefully you break even financially before 10-years and things start breaking out of warranty.

FWIW, my system is coming up on 12 years now without any issues.

IMO, a 10-12 year payback is reasonable from a public policy perspective. Yes, manufactures/installers will exit the business and may not be around in 15 years, but that is no different than many other home improvements: window, door, HVAC, contractors all disappear when you need warranty service.
 
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So what y'all are really saying is that the existential threat of climate change/environment has a price and if other taxpayers won't give you a big guaranteed return, you aren't interested.


No, what is being said is that there are millions of people out there with a varying spectrum of believes, resources, and decision making situations.

Some people care about warranty. Some people care about ROI. Some people just hate PG&E. Some people care about the existential threat of climate change. Some people want to heat their home to 74F in the Winter. Some people want a cool-azz technology to brag to their neighbors about how cool their house is.

Policymakers who represent all of these millions of stakeholders establish guidelines that aim to affect behaviors, but ultimately it is up to the millions to behave and act to their own accord.

If the government were completely absent from the equation... Tesla wouldn't exist because there would have been zero clean air credits in play and zero EV tax credits to vehicle buyers. Cellular would still be non-existent because the government never would have parceled out the GHz spectrum to allow the various carriers to operate. And Coal would still the the dominant form of base-load energy creation in the USA because the investments to drive renewables wouldn't have made economic sense.

Ignoring the 1% mega-rich-outliers that dodge taxes, the vast majority of us plebes are paying for each other's benefits. This is better than the alternative where everyone fends for themselves all the time.
 
Please leave a public comment to PG&E's general rate case application.
apps.cpuc.ca.gov/c/A2106021

Compared to the baseline 2022 starting year, the proposed revenue increases during the 4 year GRC would be:
2023: +$3.56 Bn (+18% in the first year)
2024: +$4.49 Bn
2025: +$5.08 Bn
2026: +$5.46 Bn

That's $18.59 Bn without a single shred of cost cutting on their part to actually try to achieve more efficient operations. ....
When you have a very compliant CPUC who needs efficient operation. :D
 
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So what y'all are really saying is that the existential threat of climate change/environment has a price and if other taxpayers won't give you a big guaranteed return, you aren't interested.
No, I'm saying it is everyone's responsibility and the costs should be shared by everyone. But if the path the government is going to take is financial incentives then it needs to be a wise financial decision for me to participate.
They could also take the path to mandate the utilities use 100% renewables and let the residential renewable power sources stand on their own without incentives. The problem with the cost impacts would be regressive on the lower income population.
 
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No, what is being said is that there are millions of people out there with a varying spectrum of believes, resources, and decision making situations.

Some people care about warranty. Some people care about ROI. Some people just hate PG&E. Some people care about the existential threat of climate change. Some people want to heat their home to 74F in the Winter. Some people want a cool-azz technology to brag to their neighbors about how cool their house is.

Policymakers who represent all of these millions of stakeholders establish guidelines that aim to affect behaviors, but ultimately it is up to the millions to behave and act to their own accord.

If the government were completely absent from the equation... Tesla wouldn't exist because there would have been zero clean air credits in play and zero EV tax credits to vehicle buyers. Cellular would still be non-existent because the government never would have parceled out the GHz spectrum to allow the various carriers to operate. And Coal would still the the dominant form of base-load energy creation in the USA because the investments to drive renewables wouldn't have made economic sense.

Ignoring the 1% mega-rich-outliers that dodge taxes, the vast majority of us plebes are paying for each other's benefits. This is better than the alternative where everyone fends for themselves all the time.
Well said and succinct. Thx.
 
Well said and succinct. Thx.


Many good ideas suggested in this thread, and, except for the rare poster who is doing solar solely for the environmental benefits, for the rest it comes down to payback, i.e, ROI. Three posters above said 12 years is too long (as does nearly every solar company); in essence, they want to "make" money (or have eletricity bills near zero) sooner on an investment that should last 20+ years (with some maintenance). But if they are making money, it's coming out of someone else's pockets. Even if we turned PG&E into a non-profit tomorrow, that doesn't mean their incompetence goes away. They just stop paying taxes. Even if we improve the successor utility company -- and/or break it up -- that still doesn't change the economic payback of home solar. 5 years? 8 years. 12 years? 15? Pick a number at which the home solar owner gets near free electric. (I get the hate on PG&E, but that doesn't change the underlying economics.)
 
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Sure, for a High School Frosh. This thread is about NEM 3.0, and what line do you draw and where do you draw it. (Monthly access fees, reimbursement for export, true-up, take your pick, as all rates are fungible) For a public policy proposal we need # specifics, not motherhood and apple pie.

Many good ideas suggested in this thread, and, except for the rare poster who is doing solar solely for the environmental benefits, for the rest it comes down to payback, i.e, ROI. Three posters above said 12 years is too long (as does nearly every solar company); in essence, they want to "make" money (or have eletricity bills near zero) sooner on an investment that should last 20+ years (with some maintenance). But if they are making money, it's coming out of someone else's pockets. Even if we turned PG&E into a non-profit tomorrow, that doesn't mean their incompetence goes away. They just stop paying taxes. Even if we improve the successor utility company -- and/or break it up -- that still doesn't change the economic payback of home solar. 5 years? 8 years. 12 years? 15? Pick a number at which the home solar owner gets near free electric. (I get the hate on PG&E, but that doesn't change the underlying economics.)

I can mostly only comment on San Diego, but a break up of utilities would have a major impact because utilities are for profit companies with shareholders. Their goal is always to maximize profits so users be damned honestly.

Sempra energy had a near $9? billion profit last year (owner of SDG&E with our highest rates in the nation...I think their SDG&E profit was 800+ million?). If they were non-profit, there is now no incentive to maximize profits. Their capital projects all have guaranteed returns of 10%+ returns for anyone investing in it so it's always funded and guaranteed. Since higher capital projects means higher profits, it's in their profit model to maximize capital projects even if it wastes money without any real regard for users or anything else. Sorta like a bridge to nowhere, they just need to do stuff and the higher the price, the better (since again, profits are tied to $$ spent...golden toilets? overpay for anything? who really cares).

The whole problem and I've stated this before is that the whole energy market is totally messed up and completely structured incorrectly. There is no reason for utilities to conserve since as we've discussed non-stop here, if everyone decided to say, simply use less or kill use of any power, the utlities go belly up. Volumetric pricing is also a problem because those are the money makers for a utility, but these people are also the highest beneficial people to install solar/batteries and cut out the IOUs too.

Everything dealing with conservation, environmental can't be done due to their overall structure. I think until that changes, everyone will only see higher prices and little benefit. I still think locally owned solutions are best. Take solar on homes, expand to a local city and there is a vested interest within a community to keep everyone elses rates low since they all live there.

Every single utility that's not the large IOUs, even if they are right next door to PG&E, SGE, etc, the costs are much lower.

Even with gas prices with where they are, I think we see it still moves up and down. With utilities and power, I think like death/taxes, it ALWAYS only goes up, never down.
 
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I once did some work for an IOU on the east coast. I was always trying to reduce theirs and their customers costs. Once they called me out to explain I did not understand their business model:
  • They got paid to plant things in the ground regardless of it's effectiveness
  • Later they would get paid to fix anything that was not effective
Clearly I was out of touch with the industry. 🙂
 
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Haha someone spoke at the PG&E/CPUC "open forum" yesterday saying that he felt NEM 2.0 didn't provide adequate incentives for people to adopt renewables like roof-top solar, batteries, or EVs.

Edit, sorry I thought the respondent was a PG&E rep. It was a CPUC rep (John Larson Administrator Law Judge).

The guy responded saying: "that incentivizing renewables may be the way to avoid the situation we heard about from the callers today about the rate increases and the amount they're paying."

I wonder if PG&E is going to cancel this guy's electricity.

 
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Haha someone spoke at the PG&E/CPUC "open forum" yesterday saying that he felt NEM 2.0 didn't provide adequate incentives for people to adopt renewables like roof-top solar, batteries, or EVs.

The PG&E guy (Steve Wakeman) responded saying: "that incentivizing renewables may be the way to avoid the situation we heard about from the callers today about the rate increases and the amount they're paying."

I wonder if PG&E is going to cancel this guy's pension for defecting the party line.

what is the status of NEM 3?