Dark morning in America - talk of Model S seems - frivolous

[deonb]

If you have something to say @Macbest, say it. But this seems a little passive aggressive. I'd rather have an adult conversation.

View attachment 212389

He rated all posts in this thread as disagree, doesnt matter which side it was on.

He must just be a very disagreeable guy.

 

[ModelX]

I appreciate being able to talk about these things, and agree that is why it is labeled off topic. Maybe the people who keep coming to this thread and then complaining about it being here don't know how to use the forum. Anyone who only wants to discuss the car should go to, or follow those links. I enjoy many off topic threads; I find some educational and some I just enjoy being part of a community.

 

[hobbes]

Although I agree this thread is obviously political, it is not all off topic. This will negatively affect the view of the US everywhere in the world, not just in the countries whose citizens were banned. Which means even without a trade war this will also affect Tesla sales. Elon seeming to get increasingly involved with Trump won´t help (though I believe him that he does it mostly to to influence him in the right direction).

Remember how it was discussed a lot how Tesla was going to build the next factories in Europe or China? Haven´t heard about those plans for a while, and I´m afraid that´s not because Tesla came to the conclusion it doesn´t make business sense after all.

On the topic whether we should have this thread at TMC: Absolutely. That´s something you just can´t put away and it is much better having it all in one place than spread over lots of other threads (both for the discussion here and the other topics).

 

[deonb]

Although I agree this thread is obviously political, it is not all off topic. This will negatively affect the view of the US everywhere in the world, not just in the countries whose citizens were banned. Which means even without a trade war this will also affect Tesla sales

Also, by disallowing tech workers with greencards to return, this directly impacts a companies' cost and ability to deliver a product. Even if Tesla didn't have any workers directly affected (but chances are they do), other companies do.

Inevitable tech companies will now head-hunt those workers they will lose from other companies around them, making everybody's cost of labor more expensive.

As a tech worker myself - woo-hoo, my desirability just went up further. But as someone who also has to hire other people - ugh.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The effort to make it political is an effort to mask what it truly is.

It's an effort to disguise that it isn't an inhumane action done without any justification. There is no statistics that say they caused a REAL danger to us in comparison to all the things that kill us every day. At the end of the day it was done out of fear mongering. It wasn't a reasonable prudent action done in response to a real threat.

If you nail a hammer into someone does it really matter who or what party affiliation the person has who nailed the hammer?

No, it's about the nail being hammered into someone.

It's a dark day for those of us with empathy for our fellow humans. Who can see people for who they are behind the country they were born in.

TMC is a forum of people around the world. It's a place where we don't make accusations towards someone based on where they live. Sure we might joke about it, but it's never serious.

This is serious.

There are good number of us on this forum that talk nearly every day. In this thread I agree with the the OP, and in another thread I think he's gone and lost his mind. The only difference between the two posts is that only one of them matters in the big scheme of life.

 

[jbcarioca]

To my much earlier post about my Iranian friend. He was lucky, in a way. He managed to leave to Canada, which welcomed him. He also convinced his business associates to see him in Toronto. It looks like Canada will benefit from this idiocy, to some extent at least. Next: Nafta

 

[Lump]

Where was the outrage when Obama banned Iraq's for 6 months back in 2011 after only 1 al Qaeda case, today we have ISIS & its sympathizers that have carried out multiple attacks on innocent Americans & nothing was done, what about their human rights?

As a result of the Kentucky case, the State Department stopped processing Iraq refugees for six months in 2011, federal officials told ABC News – even for many who had heroically helped U.S. forces as interpreters and intelligence assets. One Iraqi who had aided American troops was assassinated before his refugee application could be processed, because of the immigration delays, two U.S. officials said. In 2011, fewer than 10,000 Iraqis were resettled as refugees in the U.S., half the number from the year before, State Department statistics show.

Exclusive: 'Dozens' of Terrorists May Be in US as Refugees

 

[hockeythug]

Although I agree this thread is obviously political, it is not all off topic. This will negatively affect the view of the US everywhere in the world, not just in the countries whose citizens were banned. Which means even without a trade war this will also affect Tesla sales. Elon seeming to get increasingly involved with Trump won´t help (though I believe him that he does it mostly to to influence him in the right direction).

Remember how it was discussed a lot how Tesla was going to build the next factories in Europe or China? Haven´t heard about those plans for a while, and I´m afraid that´s not because Tesla came to the conclusion it doesn´t make business sense after all.

On the topic whether we should have this thread at TMC: Absolutely. That´s something you just can´t put away and it is much better having it all in one place than spread over lots of other threads (both for the discussion here and the other topics).

Has your head been under a rock? They already hated us before this temporary ban. Those counties hate us because we bomb and kill their citizens.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Federal judge stays deportations of detainees after challenge to Trump order

 

[CuriousG]

Just some food for thought ... from someone I never thought I'd agree with re policy. (To be fair, he probably never thought we'd be in agreement on anything, either. )

Dick Cheney Thinks Trump's Muslim Ban Is 'Against Everything We Stand For'

We can only hope Cheney takes Trump out hunting.

 

[neroden]

I'm saying that if Iran wants to be treated as a civilized country, they need to become a civilized country.

They are. One of the oldest civilizations in the world (along with Egypt and Sumeria). And extraordinarily peace-loving. Iran has never attacked another country in over 150 years.

There's some serious question about whether the *US* is civilized, however. The US did overthrow the legitimate popularly elected government of Iran in the 1950s in order to establish a dictatorship -- a situation which led directly to the Islamic Revolution in 1979.

Their citizens created the government and laws they have. It is not a dictatorship. The majority made Iran what it is today.

Only half-true. The "Supreme Leader", first Khomenei and then Khamenei, arrogated power to himself and repeatedly overrides the Majlis (Parliament) and disqualifies candidates. Iran is only a semi-democratic state, like the UK was before the 1830s, or like Morocco is now. Or, arguably, like the US is now, what with our practice of putting the guy who gets fewer votes into the President's office, something we've done twice in the last 20 years.

I personally believe that all the insane US sanctions and hostile actions towards Iran are driven by anger that Iran wouldn't submit to the US imperial bootheel. The military-industrial complex resents the fact that Iran threw out the US's puppet dictator. Every hostile action by the US since then has simply been a petty snit.

Objectively speaking Iran is the natural ally of the US people in the region, being more secular, more pro-science, better educated, more democratic, more youthful, and more religiously tolerant than Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or the UAE. But which countries act as US puppets and which ones don't? That seems to be the basis of US government policy (and it doesn't matter which party is in power in the US).

Which shouldn't surprise anyone who's studied US policy towards South America: for over 150 years the US has overthrown democracies and supported puppet dictators in South America, and everyone in South America knows it. The completely counterproductive sanctions against Cuba seem to be the same sort of snit -- they overthrew the US puppet dictator Batista, how dare they!

I wish we'd start running foreign policy on some sort of rational grounds, rather than based on petty snits against countries which overthrew US puppet dictators, but this has been going on longer than I've been alive, so it'll take a major change in our government to see it happen.

As for Trump's order, it's just gross. Utterly counterproductive. Well, it helps Canada, I guess, but it's utterly counterproductive to US interests. Major businesses will probably move out of the US after this uncivilized, thoughtless immigration order. It affects loyal green card holders. But it does nothing to prevent Saudi terrorists from coming into the US (remember most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi), which just shows how abusively irrational it is.

 

[neroden]

If you are a woman or homosexual or Jew or Christian, exactly what's the reciprocity in those nations?

Iran treats women and Jews and Christians just fine. Do your research.

Saudi Arabia doesn't. But Trump's order doesn't apply to Saudi Arabia. This indicates that the motivations have nothing to do with human rights.

Actually, any time Saudi Arabia, the most undemocratic religious-extremist dictatorship in the entire world, is exempted from some kind of sanctions or restrictions, it shows US government hypocrisy -- apparently for the US government it's all about getting Saudi oil, and to hell with human rights, and who cares about terrorism (most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi), and it's just fine to fund extremist Wahabbi theology around the world (because that's where Saudi money goes).

This has been US policy as observed since at least the 1980s. It's insane and counterproductive, but it's persisted under every government we've elected.

(This is actually on topic.... wait for it.)

After watching this political dynamic for 30 years, I concluded that the US government is addicted to Saudi oil, and will do anything to get it, betray any principle, severely harm our national security, work contrary to our national interests, etc.

I believe that there's only one way to stop this: make oil *irrelevant*. Expand Tesla as fast as possible and displace all the cars on the road; end the use of gasoline and diesel entirely. After this happens, then I think it becomes possible for the US government to see the Middle East through clearer eyes.

So my political goals have ended up focusing on "how can we promote electric cars".

 

[ABC2D]

Where was the outrage when Obama banned Iraq's for 6 months back in 2011 after only 1 al Qaeda case, today we have ISIS & its sympathizers that have carried out multiple attacks on innocent Americans & nothing was done, what about their human rights?

As a result of the Kentucky case, the State Department stopped processing Iraq refugees for six months in 2011, federal officials told ABC News – even for many who had heroically helped U.S. forces as interpreters and intelligence assets. One Iraqi who had aided American troops was assassinated before his refugee application could be processed, because of the immigration delays, two U.S. officials said. In 2011, fewer than 10,000 Iraqis were resettled as refugees in the U.S., half the number from the year before, State Department statistics show.

Exclusive: 'Dozens' of Terrorists May Be in US as Refugees

.....no one???? How convenient

I hope Trump continue with his course to prevent USA becoming the second Europe.

 

[James Anders]

And let's not even touch on the fact that Saudi Arabia wasn't included in the ban, even though the majority of 9/11 terrorists have come from that country.

Oh right. Some people have business interests there.

That's because it's not a "Muslim" ban. It's a ban on specific countries with known terrorist problems. And it's only a temporary ban until we are able to properly vet.

 

[James Anders]

Just some food for thought ... from someone I never thought I'd agree with re policy. (To be fair, he probably never thought we'd be in agreement on anything, either. )

Dick Cheney Thinks Trump's Muslim Ban Is 'Against Everything We Stand For'

It is not a Muslim ban. Please. It's a specific country ban with terror issues. Many Muslim countries are not banned.

And I certainly don't recall too many being upset when Jimmy Carter or Obama banned people.

 

[Electroman]

As for Trump's order, it's just gross. Utterly counterproductive.

You need to stop this hysteria. 7 well known nations that harbor folks that hate US - you can call them terrorists or thugs or simply misguided islamists or whatever you want - have been banned temporarily visiting the US. Although I honestly think Iran should not be on that list. This is not a ban on folks visiting with green cards, but on other type of temporary visa. Big deal.

yes, I am upset that they did not include Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, which are probably the executive and implementation arm of all of Islamic terrorism. But DT will get to them sometime in the near future. This is the first salvo against the low hanging fruits.

Instead of making this so public with an executive order, i would have done this silently behind the scenes telling the consulate office of the respective countries to simply reduce the approvals to say 2% or less.. effectively the result as banning. The consulate officers have a very WIDE latitude on who they can give visa, and the same is true for Immigration officers at the airport.

Instead of doing this silently, DT did the usual pomp and show and now facing this meaningless backlash.

 

[McRat]

You need to stop this hysteria. 7 well known nations that harbor folks that hate US - you can call them terrorists or thugs or simply misguided islamists or whatever you want - have been banned temporarily visiting the US. This is not a ban on folks visiting with green cards, but on other type of temporary visa. Big deal.

yes, I am upset that they did not include Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, which are probably the executive and implementation arm of all of Islamic terrorism. But DT will get to them sometime in the near future. This is the first salvo against the low hanging fruits.

Instead of making this so public with an executive order, i would have done this silently behind the scenes telling the consulate office of the respective countries to simply reduce the approvals to say 2% or less.. effectively the result as banning. The consulate officers have a very WIDE latitude on who they can give visa, and the same is true for Immigration officers at the airport.

Instead of doing this silently, DT did the usual pomp and show and now facing this meaningless backlash.

Hiding it probably would not have the desired effect. They already think he knows where Hoffa's body is and has an apartment in Area 51.

There are more Black Helicopter people in the USA today than any time since McCarthy. Probably more.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Give me a break. Every country changes their visa requirements from time to time. Obama himself instituted a 6 month travel ban from Iraq (without telling anyone about it, press were asleep). This is a 3 month temporary ban. It is an inconvenience but hardly a tragedy. Before I became a citizen, I was denied entry in the US myself (papers were messed up). My wife had to stay out of the country for almost 6 months after we had moved here due to visa issues. It happens all the time. We are now US citizens partly to mitigate issues at the border. Even my native Canada turns people away - I got a lecture entering Canada once with my US passport. The Canadian border agent made the point of saying that entering with a US passport is a revocable privilege, not a right.

So, go ahead and tie yourself in knots and make yourself depressed over this, but it is how the world works.

 

[Incredulocious]

Regarding whether it's a "Muslim ban",
from GIULIANI: Trump asked me how to do a Muslim ban 'legally'

GIULIANI: Trump asked me how to do a Muslim ban 'legally'

• Former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani told Fox in an interview on Saturday that he helped draft President Donald Trump's "extreme vetting" executive order after Trump called him and asked how to do a "Muslim ban" "legally."
  
  "When he first announced it, he said 'Muslim ban,'" Giuliani, who served as the vice chairman of Trump's transition team, told Fox. "He called me up. He said 'put a commission together. Show me the right way to do it legally.'"
  
  Giuliani then put a commission together with Judge Mike Mukasey, Congressman Mike McCaul, Rep. Pete King, and a "whole group of very expert lawyers on this," he said.
  
  "We focused on, instead of religion, on danger," Giuliani continued. "The areas of the world that create danger for us. Which is a factual basis, not a religious basis. Perfectly legal, perfectly sensible. And that's what the ban is based on."
  
  Experts have noted that the countries included in the ban — Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia and Yemen — seem arbitrary, and do not include countries that have posed serious terror threats in the past such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and the United Arab Emirates.
  
  The order cites the September 11, 2001 terror attacks three times as justification for the ban, but the 9/11 hijackers were from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Lebanon — none of which were included on the list of banned countries.
  
  Trump insisted on Saturday that the order is "not a Muslim ban."
  
  "It's not a Muslim ban," Trump told reporters in the Oval Office at the White House. "It's working out very nicely. You see it at the airports, you see it all over."
  

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I'm saying that if Iran wants to be treated as a civilized country, they need to become a civilized country. Their citizens created the government and laws they have. It is not a dictatorship. The majority made Iran what it is today.

Were you protesting when we restricted visas from the USSR and the People's Republic of China when they were advocating the overthrow of the West by force of arms?

You need to do some reading about Iran's electoral system.