Decreasing rated range.

[Super Gizmo]

Super Gizmo: were you expecting the same EPA range as new, 265 miles, year after year ?

Up until last year & 14K miles when the new firmware giving the option to charge under the max Daily was introduced.

ckessel - I know that eventually all batteries degrade but in this case it seems like some (especially A pack) are degrading faster than others. Some people charge in the similar pattern as I do and have a lot higher mileage on their cars but get better range. There are 152 pages on this thread and if you read through them and other threads regarding range, one things becomes clear - most people are confused about charging level. Even Tesla employees have different answers.

tomas - As I posted above "So, it seems like as many have stated in this thread the obvious reason for losing range is not charging to max Daily as we used to when the car was first introduced in 2012". It seems like that is what you are doing with good results and I am planning on doing the same. The problem is as many have posted on this thread and I have read somewhere Elon Musk being quoted, in his answer last year to a query in a press conference somewhere, stated that to maintain ideal battery health it should be charged around 60%. So, there is no clear solution. There are many differing opinions. I wish Tesla would make it clear in the Owner's Guide and on their blog post on the Tesla web site about what level is best for the car to be charged at. They simply say to leave it plugged in but do not elaborate about plugging in to what % would be best for the health of the battery.

 

[ckessel]

ckessel - I know that eventually all batteries degrade but in this case it seems like some (especially A pack) are degrading faster than others. Some people charge in the similar pattern as I do and have a lot higher mileage on their cars but get better range. There are 152 pages on this thread and if you read through them and other threads regarding range, one things becomes clear - most people are confused about charging level. Even Tesla employees have different answers.

I've read most of this thread over the years.

There's certainly a lot of individual variation. Given charging styles, driving styles, temperature variations, battery back variations, and so forth I expect a decent level of variation Some people are doing really well and some less so, but even the folks that aren't doing as great are still basically on track for Tesla's 70-80% after 8 years/100k guideline.

I wish Tesla would take an official hard stand on what % triggers the warranty. There have been folks saying [email protected] told them 70%, but there's never been anything official. And I think Tesla made a mistake by removing any wording about what degradation to expect on their website as that just leads to further confusion and speculation.

 

[Matias]

Tesla's 70-80% after 8 years/100k guideline.

There's no such guidance AFAIK. Only guidance is, that battery degeneration is not covered by warranty.

 

[ckessel]

There's no such guidance AFAIK. Only guidance is, that battery degeneration is not covered by warranty.

At one point, Tesla had it in an FAQ in the Model S section. As I noted before...it's been removed for some reason

Edit: Found it in Wayback.
Model S Facts | Tesla Motors

Tesla expects the battery to retain approximately 70% of its initial capacity after seven years or 100,000 miles.

 

[brianman]

At one point, Tesla had it in an FAQ in the Model S section. As I noted before...it's been removed for some reason

Edit: Found it in Wayback.
Model S Facts | Tesla Motors

Don't believe everything you read.

They also said this back in February, 2012:

The first 1,000 Model S vehicles delivered in the United States and the first 200 in Canada will be Signatures.

Model S Facts | Tesla Motors

Just sayin'.

 

[ckessel]

Don't believe everything you read.

The point is Tesla has given guidance on degradation expectations in the past.

If you search Tesla's forums, there are multiple reports of customers asking Tesla (via the [email protected] address) about degradation and warranty and being told it would kick in at 70%. Whether that'd hold up in arbitration, I have no idea.

 

[brianman]

The point is Tesla has given guidance on degradation expectations in the past.

Not under dispute.

 

[johnmodels]

Not under dispute.

Just did a range charge at the nearest Supercharger and got 248 at 100% "complete" charge. VIN 6XXX, A pack, 32,000 miles.

Looks like I am one of the lowest range charge miles. Anyone worse?

I have never "balanced" the pack and only gone to under 10 miles once.

I never keep the car at a high SOC (>90%) for more than a few hours at most.

John

 

[apacheguy]

248 isn't so bad considering there are a whole slew of A packs centered around 250ish. I'm right at 250 FWIW (haven't checked 6.0 numbers).

 

[badgerlake]

248 isn't so bad considering there are a whole slew of A packs centered around 250ish. I'm right at 250 FWIW.

I'm at 231 but I haven't done a full charge since 6.0 was installed.

 

[ckessel]

Just did a range charge at the nearest Supercharger and got 248 at 100% "complete" charge. VIN 6XXX, A pack, 32,000 miles.

Pretty much on par with mine. I'm at 252 I think last time, VIN 2310 with 27,000 miles. I'd probably be in the high 240s like you once I hit 32k. I started with 272 originally.

As I said before, it's sort of "meh". I'd hoped for better. I'm losing about 15 rates miles per calendar year. So, after 10 years that'd be only 45% rated range left, which is worse than I thought by a pretty big margin. However, batteries don't have a linear degradation so I figure I won't really know how it's doing for another few years.

 

[johnmodels]

That was with 6.0. I didn't notice any difference after the update.

BTW For clarification, I'm a 85 KW pack.

231? How many miles and months old is your MS?
John

 

[badgerlake]

That was with 6.0. I didn't notice any difference after the update.

BTW For clarification, I'm a 85 KW pack.

231? How many miles and months old is your MS?
John

Dec 2012 but with only 12k miles and a babied battery. I have contacted ownership and the SC assures me things are ok (checked logs). Sounds like an algorithm issue might affect "some" of us but they prefer any folks to not self diagnose individual battery issues and reach out to their SC if they have concerns. I don't think 248 on an A pack with 32k miles should be a major concern tho.

 

[scaesare]

Pretty much on par with mine. I'm at 252 I think last time, VIN 2310 with 27,000 miles. I'd probably be in the high 240s like you once I hit 32k. I started with 272 originally.

As I said before, it's sort of "meh". I'd hoped for better. I'm losing about 15 rates miles per calendar year. So, after 10 years that'd be only 45% rated range left, which is worse than I thought by a pretty big margin. However, batteries don't have a linear degradation so I figure I won't really know how it's doing for another few years.

It's not linear like that.

I just hit 32K miles today (at exactly 16 months of ownership to the day), and I haven't range charged in a bit, but guess I'm at 250-255.

I recall that I lost 10 of those miles within the first few months, and only a few since...

 

[LMB]

(LMB spouse)

16 months, 23,000 miles, S85 with B pack, "babied" battery but dozens of Supercharges, 6.0 firmware

We see range charges between 248 and 253 (just before 200 mile leg to first SC). The variability helps me remember not to read too much into small differences. Also lost ~ 15 miles in first several months; almost none since.

 

[johnmodels]

(LMB spouse)

16 months, 23,000 miles, S85 with B pack, "babied" battery but dozens of Supercharges, 6.0 firmware

We see range charges between 248 and 253 (just before 200 mile leg to first SC). The variability helps me remember not to read too much into small differences. Also lost ~ 15 miles in first several months; almost none since.

Thanks for the feedback! It's nice to know how many are in the same boat.

John

 

[ecarfan]

S85, took ownership 12/21/13, currently 17K miles, B pack, have range charged maybe 10 times and never let the car sit at full for more than an hour, normally keep the battery at around 80%, mild climate, recent range charge showed 255 rated miles. Use an HPWC for home charging, have used Superchargers about 20 times and never to more than 90% charge.

So that is about a 4% loss in the first year. I'm fine with that as long as in the second year the loss is less than 5% and after that it is in the very low single digits. That is what I am expecting based on the data to date.

Tesla has created a very impressive BMS.

 

[johnmodels]

S85, took ownership 12/21/13, currently 17K miles, B pack, have range charged maybe 10 times and never let the car sit at full for more than an hour, normally keep the battery at around 80%, mild climate, recent range charge showed 255 rated miles. Use an HPWC for home charging, have used Superchargers about 20 times and never to more than 90% charge.

So that is about a 4% loss in the first year. I'm fine with that as long as in the second year the loss is less than 5% and after that it is in the very low single digits. That is what I am expecting based on the data to date.

Tesla has created a very impressive BMS.

I guess what is rolling around in my mind, is what range would I be OK with if it went down further. 240, 230, 220? And what is acceptable at what mileage? So if I have 75000 miles on the car and the max range is 230, will I be OK with that? Is it going down very slowly or linearly indicating that at 100,000 miles I will have about 215 max range.

So I have decreased 7% in about 30,000 miles. Lets say that is linear and not what others are talking about. That would mean that at 120,000 I will have a max range of 190 miles.

Just thinking out loud here....

I would hope that it would have more than 225 miles range at that mileage. Just my thoughts!!!
John

 

[scaesare]

Is it going down very slowly or linearly indicating that at 100,000 miles I will have about 215 max range.

I addressed this above. It's NOT linear. This is true of Li-ion battery chemistry in general, and agrees with Tesla's guidance on the subject as well. It also matches what I've seen in 16 months of ownership.

The "steep" part of the less curve is very early on in the cell's life. After that the slop flattens out significantly.

 

[qwk]

26k miles, 18.5 months old, B battery, vin 67XX, 262 rated last range charge, 233 at 90%.