JRP3
Hyperactive Member
No. Enthusiasm on an enthusiasts forum is not the same thing as FUD and attempts to harm the company.
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Degradation of the Community...
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
There is new guidance for membership. Minimum height - 165 cm.
He was too short.
AnxietyRanger said:
Well, of course it is not the same. Being overly positive on Tesla due to long investment causing bias would mean protecting the company.
That could, though, still be FUD or similar - say, against a consumer's concern or critique. So the victim of the bias is different, the act is similar.
Disclaimer: I don't nor have I ever owned TSLA, long or short.
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Ulmo
Active Member
I quoted the original post I found in this thread.
I think degradation of the community is due to a disease coming from Television; Television has been downgraded due to the quality of the Internet replacing all Television use (but we are in the middle of transition). What happened is that Television still looks the same to old people (it squaks at them like it always did before), but the internals of the television are cheaper, by which I mean, the content providers pay a lot less for quality content, and just end up having pretty interns on TV news sets read free and cheap Deep State bias fake propaganda stuff because it's cheap to have them read that and it fills up the subscription roles for the cable companies from all the uncaring old people who don't know any better and want to be lied to in their old age. Unfortunately, some of those old people are not so old, and socially speaking, are not 100% irrelevant, so they parrot the same stuff they heard on the Television in their group homes and checkout counters, and then the younger people who went to Carnivals which they were told are Colleges hear this stuff and it matches the same drivel they were taught at their Carnivals. Ok, so that's the background. So far, so good: the Carnies are happy, and the old people are happy. Along comes Elon Musk.
Musk makes some nifty things like EV's, even though GM killed the Electric Vehicle.
TMC is born.
People talk about the EV's. Everything is great. Everyone is happy. Technical discussions from super smart people happen. Rich people are driving cars. These are successful people that either know how to talk to other brainwashed people without getting in trouble or are themselves super wealthy and are brainwashed, but everyone is excited about the cars, so no one cares about the fake news and the fake world views. That doesn't come up. It's all about the awesome cars, and how some feature might be coming, and how the service is great, but not as great as it was before, and all of a sudden, the happy happy talk starts to disappear, because things are slowly changing even in the middle of the paragraph where I'm explaining how things started out really great, and oh darn, it's falling apart.
Now, you have this situation were people are coming here to complain about bad things. Well, they're supposed to! People are doing systems analysis, are assessing problems, are trying to figure things out. They use logic. Suddenly, the brainwashed people and the logic based people clash. The brainwashed are happy living in a deluded world where everything is great, and damnit, you better lie in favor of the fake news stories, or else, you are the Boogie Man that the fake news likes to discuss. The logical people are baffled by this, call it out as false, and boom! The lied to people feel dismayed that it is a very Negative site, and leave in droves, the Smart people already left in droves because they were so smart they already discussed everything there is to discuss (except for a recent Permanent Magnet motor discussion in the Model 3 thread), and the logical people already left in droves because either they're tired of dealing with all the liars, don't see many good posts, or were already wealthy enough to have a Tesla car and not care what TMC posters say any more.
What is TMC? Well, then, it comes down to the residual users who will come in and ask basic questions about their cars. It's not as exciting as it first was in the beginning, but it still has a residual role to play. It's de-minimus. It's only for that small group of people that will be the millions of Model 3 buyers, and Model Y buyers, and Pickup buyers, and Semi drivers, and PowerWall and Roof Tile buyers, and all that nothingness. No one will end up using it any more, except for that really, really small contingent of people who use Tesla products.
Unless TMC does something and changes all that.
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Personally, as I said early on this thread as well, I think TMC has a pretty good balance these days. There is a richness in a diversity of voices that is necessary. I like it and I think the staff has been doing better and better.
That said, what I would like even more would be for everyone to enjoy themselves in that quest for knowledge. I know sometimes people get frustrated and take personally things that are not meant that way.
For example, there seems to be a tendency in being frustrated if something is questioned or doubt is expressed. But IMO that is a necessary part in trying to seek information, especially when discussing the comings and goings of a fairly secretive company and its products.
So it is perfectly OK to doubt and question my messages, for example, that is part of the vetting process of finding things out. For me that really digging into the topics and subject matters is what I consider the way into finding out as much as we can of some particular topic.
And some others would prefer a gentler, more of a social group setting, and dislike this. So there is a certain disconnect between the more technically, information minded members (let's be frank, us geeks ) and, on the other end, those that long for perhaps more a like-minded people experience. There is also the added difficulty that in the U.S. many old-time folks know each other personally, while the rest are anonymous voices in the void (not to mention all the cultural and language barriers that follow), there is some disconnect there too.
I wish something could be done to mend these differences successfully, so that all parties could feel satisfied. I really do. Because I know sometimes people like me are frustrated that the vetting of data and info is interrupted or disliked - and on the other hand some others feel frustrated that they feel the atmosphere suffers from the types of conversation they don't prefer.
So, here's hoping we can overcome these challenges to everyone's satisfaction.
That said, what I would like even more would be for everyone to enjoy themselves in that quest for knowledge. I know sometimes people get frustrated and take personally things that are not meant that way.
For example, there seems to be a tendency in being frustrated if something is questioned or doubt is expressed. But IMO that is a necessary part in trying to seek information, especially when discussing the comings and goings of a fairly secretive company and its products.
So it is perfectly OK to doubt and question my messages, for example, that is part of the vetting process of finding things out. For me that really digging into the topics and subject matters is what I consider the way into finding out as much as we can of some particular topic.
And some others would prefer a gentler, more of a social group setting, and dislike this. So there is a certain disconnect between the more technically, information minded members (let's be frank, us geeks
) and, on the other end, those that long for perhaps more a like-minded people experience. There is also the added difficulty that in the U.S. many old-time folks know each other personally, while the rest are anonymous voices in the void (not to mention all the cultural and language barriers that follow), there is some disconnect there too.I wish something could be done to mend these differences successfully, so that all parties could feel satisfied. I really do. Because I know sometimes people like me are frustrated that the vetting of data and info is interrupted or disliked - and on the other hand some others feel frustrated that they feel the atmosphere suffers from the types of conversation they don't prefer.
So, here's hoping we can overcome these challenges to everyone's satisfaction.
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Let me try to put it this way, just as an analogue:
I *totally* understand that some of the topics on a forum like TMC are not... say... let's say suitable formal dinner table material. It has got nothing to do with not being polite, mind you, it is just that the expectation of behavior in the setting is different.
Some of TMC, to me, is more like a science SIG or a technical UG. Or that is what I would prefer. Different type of conversation there, one quite different from what would be suitable for a dinner, for example. While in the dinner table you are expected to keep things at a certain pleasant level, the SIG/UG setting might dig much deeper into any topic. It would be totally unsuitable for the dinner table, yet absolutely what is needed in the technical setting. Questioning anyone in a dinner table would be rude and not cool, while in a science or technical settings, questioning is a mandatory part of the process re-inventing its objectivity all the time...
For those who would prefer that formal dinner or maybe informal dinner amongst friends type of setting on TMC (or any other variance that is different), may find the debating nature unpleasant. For them it is about everyone getting their polite say and then rest shutting up. That *is* totally understandable too. So it comes down to what our expectations are for a forum like this.
We just need to keep seeking that middle road that works...
Does this thinking resonate with anyone?
I *totally* understand that some of the topics on a forum like TMC are not... say... let's say suitable formal dinner table material. It has got nothing to do with not being polite, mind you, it is just that the expectation of behavior in the setting is different.
Some of TMC, to me, is more like a science SIG or a technical UG. Or that is what I would prefer. Different type of conversation there, one quite different from what would be suitable for a dinner, for example. While in the dinner table you are expected to keep things at a certain pleasant level, the SIG/UG setting might dig much deeper into any topic. It would be totally unsuitable for the dinner table, yet absolutely what is needed in the technical setting. Questioning anyone in a dinner table would be rude and not cool, while in a science or technical settings, questioning is a mandatory part of the process re-inventing its objectivity all the time...
For those who would prefer that formal dinner or maybe informal dinner amongst friends type of setting on TMC (or any other variance that is different), may find the debating nature unpleasant. For them it is about everyone getting their polite say and then rest shutting up. That *is* totally understandable too. So it comes down to what our expectations are for a forum like this.
We just need to keep seeking that middle road that works...
Does this thinking resonate with anyone?
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Honestly, my pet peeve on this board is the use of the term "FUD." Too may folks just use it as an ad hominum attack on some point someone is making. If you disagree with what someone is saying, explain what your concern is; don't just call it FUD.
[Side note: Also not a fan of "Darwin Award", just because it is really condescending]
[Side note: Also not a fan of "Darwin Award", just because it is really condescending]
Chuq
Active Member
I think the degradation of the community is vastly overestimated. While there may have been about 5% degradation in the first couple of years, there has been minimal degradation since.
While others underestimate the lifespan, I'm confident that the community has a lifespan of well over 15 years until it needs to be replaced.
The community will certainly last longer than some others which don't have protection from heated discussions.
While others underestimate the lifespan, I'm confident that the community has a lifespan of well over 15 years until it needs to be replaced.
The community will certainly last longer than some others which don't have protection from heated discussions.
@Chuq Are you saying the degradation of the community has been slowed down by a software update. It could explain why the community feels a little more sluggish at times than originally.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
You can be protective of the company without any investment, as most of us were before TSLA existed, because we realized the importance of Tesla being a successful company. That does not mean we didn't and do not have valid criticisms of the company. Tesla is run by imperfect humans and will make mistakes. As it gets larger it will make more mistakes. The best we can hope is that they minimize mistakes as much as humanly possible, unless they get an AI to take over of course.
Of course. Biases can exist without conflicts of interest. But conflicts of interest (e.g. financial) are a recognized form for a reason...
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Yes because it's easier to classify than say some inherent irrational hatred for all things EV and Tesla. The lunatic Keef Wivanef for example seems to have no financial interest against Tesla but spends large amounts of time spreading lies and misinformation and filing false reports with government agencies. Your implication that financial bias is somehow worse or stronger than some other bias is simply wrong.
I am not implying that. I am implying - well, saying - that a TSLA long conflict of interest is a conflict of interest like TSLA short too. For opposite reasons. Whether or not people act on their conflicts of interests - and whatever other biases exist in the world - is another topic IMO.
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I think there is an obvious break between folks that are using Tesla products and some posters. Some posters have used the board to only report and discuss negatives. It is one thing to be balanced but another thing to be constantly (ie 3-4 times a day all year) posting negatives in just 1 user name. There is really no need to do that, no point either. Not short posts either but detailed posts about any issue that is negative to tesla. They are only posting in the car section, they only do that because that's what they are paid to do.
I work in the world of big data doing investigations and when we help companies look at feedback from that sort of person we mostly find paid for hacks and help direct the same. There are PR firms receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to poison this community, it's what I would have counseled if I were working for BMW, Volksfukers, etc. If you doubt this than just look at the recent US election when FB is admitting that Russian trolls paid them millions to destroy Clinton.
So who is a paid troll? hard to know, certain posters are probably PR trolls. They complain endlessly about small small issues, for instance the when a neat but useless tiny lux feature is added to one car in a competitor fleet they will complain it is not in Tesla, not just once but dozens of times. They will be very very very educated about all the features that exist in other cars and complain that Tesla does not have feature 1, 2 or 3. They will have them memorized.
They will claim they only want Tesla to do better, claim to be an early Tesla adopter, they may even have been given a low level tesla lease by PR firm to help compare. Anything wrong at all and they will harp on it to death.
Let me give examples of real vs PR trolls complaints:
Someone that spends $100k on a car they expect to work and it doesn't and they document with pictures and document the resolution of the issue. A good example is the problem people have fixing cars after accidents. Those are real posters, they give specific issues. Why is it so hard to repair a $100k car? Tesla could improve this and they are working on it but every high end car has the same issue to some extent but these are real issues. A PR troll won't want to go there because fixing a high end Merc is going to take just as long and cost just as much. Not a good topic.
When someone complains that the car does not have "wireless charging". This was introduced in 2014 in just a few cars, Toyota Avalon being one. It is far far from universal, its an interesting completely unneeded feature that is early days and there are competing standards, it will at some point make its way into tesla once they figure out how to manage it, because the data connection in Tesla is so much more important than regular cars. Toyota Avalon has wireless charging but data connectivity is just engineering eye candy. At tesla it is an key component of a grand strategy. Tesla has to be much more careful with introducing features that are not needed and could hurt grand strategy. SO- this is where the Trolls will dance and play. ie how mobile external devices interact with a ride share car is going to be very different than a regular car. It won't be wireless charging it will be personal authentication and deep car level controls (can you get in the frunk if you are a ride share user vs owner for instance, can you speed if you are a ride share user?). Complaints about wireless charging and crap that is moving very very fast in any case. Trolls will be all over this because this is part of the great challenge their client's face. No other car company has a vision on Mobile, Tesla does so you are paid to shat all over it. Things like mobile limitations are not a weakness but a reflection of a deep strategy.
If you see people who do these things constantly 99% chance they are paid trolls. They are trying to destroy Tesla because that's what they are paid to do. Tesla has the ability to destroy national auto industries, Germany/Japan in particular have to be frightened, if Tesla moves vehicles to EV and then to ride sharing (the real risk) than Tesla will be truly disruptive. People just don't sit and complain all day every day with great detail unless they are paid to do it.
So, do some folks want to destroy Tesla and post here. Certainly, they have been posting for years. They are savvy, well paid, and have a proven script. I might employ people just like that ...maybe.
Here are are other examples:
Political Campaigns: RNC is doing this on a grand scale today, some liberal groups are catching up. The Russian cases are so so well documented that they set the standard. Putin hated Clinton who was viewed as a tough line no BS person.
Sports: UNC attempt to discredit the NCAA investigation after 1200 fake classes being hid in African American dept allowing UNC to reap hundreds of millions in benefits at the expense of other schools and their own students. Truly a gross violation of any ethical standard and they have been the first major university put on academic probation by accreditation agency. What do you hear about this....not much. Brilliant PR groups being paid some $24mln by UNC so far. Money very well spent.
Autos: Tesla prime example
Global Warming: Oil industry and Coal have spent a giant slush pile of money to fund trolls that attempt to discredit science. Not really very secret, very little impact except in the US. Ironic that gas fracking has destroyed arguments and that EV and Wind cost of production are dropping so fast the arguments really will have no impact. In the meantime, some PR firms have been paid millions for ineffective help. Any weather global warming discussion and the trolls appear...in masse in multiple forums, hunting, sports, etc. Usually 1 PR person has responsibility to monitor 6-7 sites a day, they have half a dozen aliases and each is carefully crafted.
I work in the world of big data doing investigations and when we help companies look at feedback from that sort of person we mostly find paid for hacks and help direct the same. There are PR firms receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to poison this community, it's what I would have counseled if I were working for BMW, Volksfukers, etc. If you doubt this than just look at the recent US election when FB is admitting that Russian trolls paid them millions to destroy Clinton.
So who is a paid troll? hard to know, certain posters are probably PR trolls. They complain endlessly about small small issues, for instance the when a neat but useless tiny lux feature is added to one car in a competitor fleet they will complain it is not in Tesla, not just once but dozens of times. They will be very very very educated about all the features that exist in other cars and complain that Tesla does not have feature 1, 2 or 3. They will have them memorized.
They will claim they only want Tesla to do better, claim to be an early Tesla adopter, they may even have been given a low level tesla lease by PR firm to help compare. Anything wrong at all and they will harp on it to death.
Let me give examples of real vs PR trolls complaints:
Someone that spends $100k on a car they expect to work and it doesn't and they document with pictures and document the resolution of the issue. A good example is the problem people have fixing cars after accidents. Those are real posters, they give specific issues. Why is it so hard to repair a $100k car? Tesla could improve this and they are working on it but every high end car has the same issue to some extent but these are real issues. A PR troll won't want to go there because fixing a high end Merc is going to take just as long and cost just as much. Not a good topic.
When someone complains that the car does not have "wireless charging". This was introduced in 2014 in just a few cars, Toyota Avalon being one. It is far far from universal, its an interesting completely unneeded feature that is early days and there are competing standards, it will at some point make its way into tesla once they figure out how to manage it, because the data connection in Tesla is so much more important than regular cars. Toyota Avalon has wireless charging but data connectivity is just engineering eye candy. At tesla it is an key component of a grand strategy. Tesla has to be much more careful with introducing features that are not needed and could hurt grand strategy. SO- this is where the Trolls will dance and play. ie how mobile external devices interact with a ride share car is going to be very different than a regular car. It won't be wireless charging it will be personal authentication and deep car level controls (can you get in the frunk if you are a ride share user vs owner for instance, can you speed if you are a ride share user?). Complaints about wireless charging and crap that is moving very very fast in any case. Trolls will be all over this because this is part of the great challenge their client's face. No other car company has a vision on Mobile, Tesla does so you are paid to shat all over it. Things like mobile limitations are not a weakness but a reflection of a deep strategy.
If you see people who do these things constantly 99% chance they are paid trolls. They are trying to destroy Tesla because that's what they are paid to do. Tesla has the ability to destroy national auto industries, Germany/Japan in particular have to be frightened, if Tesla moves vehicles to EV and then to ride sharing (the real risk) than Tesla will be truly disruptive. People just don't sit and complain all day every day with great detail unless they are paid to do it.
So, do some folks want to destroy Tesla and post here. Certainly, they have been posting for years. They are savvy, well paid, and have a proven script. I might employ people just like that ...maybe.
Here are are other examples:
Political Campaigns: RNC is doing this on a grand scale today, some liberal groups are catching up. The Russian cases are so so well documented that they set the standard. Putin hated Clinton who was viewed as a tough line no BS person.
Sports: UNC attempt to discredit the NCAA investigation after 1200 fake classes being hid in African American dept allowing UNC to reap hundreds of millions in benefits at the expense of other schools and their own students. Truly a gross violation of any ethical standard and they have been the first major university put on academic probation by accreditation agency. What do you hear about this....not much. Brilliant PR groups being paid some $24mln by UNC so far. Money very well spent.
Autos: Tesla prime example
Global Warming: Oil industry and Coal have spent a giant slush pile of money to fund trolls that attempt to discredit science. Not really very secret, very little impact except in the US. Ironic that gas fracking has destroyed arguments and that EV and Wind cost of production are dropping so fast the arguments really will have no impact. In the meantime, some PR firms have been paid millions for ineffective help. Any weather global warming discussion and the trolls appear...in masse in multiple forums, hunting, sports, etc. Usually 1 PR person has responsibility to monitor 6-7 sites a day, they have half a dozen aliases and each is carefully crafted.
Good grief.
I fit nearly everyone of those paranoid delusions, but I'm still waiting for my first paycheck from "BIG OIL" or "GERMAN CAR".
Also still waiting for my EAP.
There are really 6 different situations here - not two:
1) Like. This is people who have (or want to have) the product and overall like it.
2) Like, then invest. It is not at all unusual for people to invest in and/or root for companies when they like the product. They should. I believe most of the owners and fans on this forum who invested in TSLA are in this category. They invested because they love the product. I remember the razor commercial "I liked the blade so much I bought the company!". What's wrong with that?
3) Invest, then flatter. It is a different thing if someone shills for the company only to get financial return from their investment. If someone aims to convince others to buy a flawed product by providing false information, solely for their investment gain, it would be very wrong.
4) Buy, then criticize. It is not wrong for people who bought a product to observe and discuss shortcomings or issues with the product or service.
5) Bet against (short), then criticize. Of the categories, this is the intolerable one, because it is clearly an attempt to harm the company's image and sales purely for the gain of an individual.
6) Paid trolls, as noted above by @nativewolf
The problem we seem to have on this forum is that some type 1 and 2 members seem to have a hard time distinguishing between the type 4, 5, and 6 members. AND, some type 4 members seem to have a hard time seeing a difference between the type 1, 2, and 3 members.
Personally, I'm a type 1 member most of the time, and occasionally a type 4. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a type 3 or 6 member, but I'll grant they may exist. I'm certain there are type 5 members here, but I do not know who they are, hard to tell from some radical type 4. Personally, I sometimes get befuddled by type 4 members who are so consistently negative that I wonder why they bought the product at all, as well as why they would spend so much time in a negative activity (posting criticism on this forum)... but they are entitled as owners. I wish them a very happy and positive activity elsewhere in their life.
1) Like. This is people who have (or want to have) the product and overall like it.
2) Like, then invest. It is not at all unusual for people to invest in and/or root for companies when they like the product. They should. I believe most of the owners and fans on this forum who invested in TSLA are in this category. They invested because they love the product. I remember the razor commercial "I liked the blade so much I bought the company!". What's wrong with that?
3) Invest, then flatter. It is a different thing if someone shills for the company only to get financial return from their investment. If someone aims to convince others to buy a flawed product by providing false information, solely for their investment gain, it would be very wrong.
4) Buy, then criticize. It is not wrong for people who bought a product to observe and discuss shortcomings or issues with the product or service.
5) Bet against (short), then criticize. Of the categories, this is the intolerable one, because it is clearly an attempt to harm the company's image and sales purely for the gain of an individual.
6) Paid trolls, as noted above by @nativewolf
The problem we seem to have on this forum is that some type 1 and 2 members seem to have a hard time distinguishing between the type 4, 5, and 6 members. AND, some type 4 members seem to have a hard time seeing a difference between the type 1, 2, and 3 members.
Personally, I'm a type 1 member most of the time, and occasionally a type 4. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a type 3 or 6 member, but I'll grant they may exist. I'm certain there are type 5 members here, but I do not know who they are, hard to tell from some radical type 4. Personally, I sometimes get befuddled by type 4 members who are so consistently negative that I wonder why they bought the product at all, as well as why they would spend so much time in a negative activity (posting criticism on this forum)... but they are entitled as owners. I wish them a very happy and positive activity elsewhere in their life.
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That's a pretty reasonable analysis. Thumbs-up! I think if you added a distinction to 1, it'd be a scooch better. And it might explain why some/most 4s befuddle you. There are 1As who live with the cars and 1Bs who have yet to live with the cars.
Probably nearly universally, 4s bought the cars because they were initially in camp 1Bs. It is only after owning the car and going through the process of purchasing it that some have their attitude soured. This even helps explain why some are so upset and become 4s. It is only because they viewed the company so highly that their disappointment is so great. I feel like this shows my trajectory even.
Oh, like Cadillac much?. "Oh Tesla should have these features that Cadillac has in it's video oh...and heres the video". Sure, sure they should ..snort with laughter. PM me if you want a better job with better training.
You like the fact that Tesla can do those over the air updates? scares GM to death because that is part of what they are missing. The car is an electronic device like a computer or cloud computing system. If I were GM i'd be scared to death too. GM is trying to lobby at the state level to block tesla's but the Caddy version of the volt was such a horrific failure that it scared them off a caddy bolt. Which is sad.
What you really should have stated in your post is wow..I wish GM would combine the vision and engineering in Tesla with the Caddy refinements. Then you go on to bash Tesla. Say something nice first, then bash. Also, you'd have done better not responding to the thread.
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