Degradation of the Community...

[ohmman]

The TMC policy for linking to one's own blog is that it's OK if its a personal blog but not if you're seeking to create a revenue stream from here. This is why @bro1999's signature was permissible. I explained this to him in PM when we had the original conversation.

Regarding the rest of the behavior and posting, it's up to the reader to decide whether he's being politely contrarian or purposefully not.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

In another thread @jeffro01 lamented that in the olden days people with critical posts would have been shouted out as "shorts".

I agreed with him, that certainly would have happened.

I just disagreed totally on whether or not that was a good thing.

I for one am SO, SO very happy that TMC is no longer like that. We have great technical contributors like @verygreen and @lunitiks bringing new insights, even critical insights - @wk057 no longer being the lone voice on that. We consider information that comes from leaks and new poster much more accurately these days and avoid shooting down unpleasant messengers (who more often than not were right even before) and so forth.

We have more people that are here to share an experience, instead of being on a mission, and that makes for a better owner's and user's forum overall as it balances the voices. I think the TMC of today is producing more accurate analysis, more accurate user help, and is overall a much more useful place to be these days. Even the TMC blog on the front page is very balanced, giving room to all kinds of voices. Moderation is very reasonable too. All in all, superb job TMC! I love it.

What I see @jeffro01 lamenting, and indeed some other old-timers, the loss of the close-knit early adopter Tesla community that was massively pro-Tesla and fighting early attacks on the community as well as the company. I'm sure there was some unique cameraderie there, but I must say coming along a bit later, I say adapting with the times was needed. When I came along, I found that old spirit hindering accurate analysis of the Model X situation, for example. Turns out, the old-timers were massively wrong on that, but kept hindering the process of finding out.

It is so refreshing to see that with AP2, the new community is taking a much more realistic and technical approach. Now there is a sense of discovery, that was IMO not here when Model X was being discussed early on. The Model X debacle and AP2 debacles, naturally, helping to even things out anyway, but also simply the growth of the community. Things have become more normal. This is not a guerrilla war anymore, this is a civil society, to use such a comparison.

The community has changed, but also Tesla the company has changed and grown into something that deserves and needs IMO a different approach.

This is not meant to take anything away from the early times on TMC. I am sure the camraderie then produced results useful for the times and indeed was a valuable service. But there is also the case of the "founder's syndrome". At some point realizing that the old ways are hindering the new ways must be considered. IMO that was what happened.

Put it this way: IMO the old community was no longer working for the new times. The new community IMO works immensely better.

 

[oktane]

In another thread @jeffro01 lamented that in the olden days people with critical posts would have been shouted out as "shorts".

I agreed with him, that certainly would have happened.

I just disagreed totally on whether or not that was a good thing.

I for one am SO, SO very happy that TMC is no longer like that. We have great technical contributors like @verygreen and @lunitiks bringing new insights, even critical insights - @wk057 no longer being the lone voice on that. We consider information that comes from leaks and new poster much more accurately these days and avoid shooting down unpleasant messengers (who more often than not were right even before) and so forth.

We have more people that are here to share an experience, instead of being on a mission, and that makes for a better owner's and user's forum overall as it balances the voices. I think the TMC of today is producing more accurate analysis, more accurate user help, and is overall a much more useful place to be these days. Even the TMC blog on the front page is very balanced, giving room to all kinds of voices. Moderation is very reasonable too. All in all, superb job TMC! I love it.

What I see @jeffro01 lamenting, and indeed some other old-timers, the loss of the close-knit early adopter Tesla community that was massively pro-Tesla and fighting early attacks on the community as well as the company. I'm sure there was some unique cameraderie there, but I must say coming along a bit later, I say adapting with the times was needed. When I came along, I found that old spirit hindering accurate analysis of the Model X situation, for example. Turns out, the old-timers were massively wrong on that, but kept hindering the process of finding out.

It is so refreshing to see that with AP2, the new community is taking a much more realistic and technical approach. Now there is a sense of discovery, that was IMO not here when Model X was being discussed early on. The Model X debacle and AP2 debacles, naturally, helping to even things out anyway....

The community has changed, but also Tesla the company has changed and grown into something that deserves and needs IMO a different approach.

Put it this way: IMO the old community was no longer working for the new times. The new community IMO works immensely better.

Very well said. He is upset that this is no longer a community of evangelists. It was bound to happen eventually as Tesla began catering to the masses such as myself.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I disagree with limiting negative posts. The whole point is to get all sides of a story, good and bad. You think this is an "enthusiast" community, suggesting that we should all be "enthusiastic" and talk about how great our cars are. I see this as a Tesla owners forum, where we talk about good and bad. I wish I had seen some negative posts before I bought my car, because I probably would have opted out for another 1-2 years while Tesla sorted out AP2. Somehow I just saw all the hype from people like you. You love Tesla to a fault, in my opinion.

What a great point. Some people really, IMO, have been advocating the "enthusiastic" meaning for "enthusiast" on TMC.

When, for me, indeed the definition for an "enthusiast" is someone who is very keen about the discovery, about knowing and experience everything about something. The enthusiasts of any products are usually the ones who know all the pros and cons, they are often the greatest critics of them as well, in the usual sense of the word. They discuss minute details and learn everything.

Indeed, @wk057 is one of the greatest critics too. No surprise there. As he became more critical, his relationship with the old community soured. @wk057 was even banned from TMC at one point. I think the current TMC atmosphere is more welcoming of such views and I'd love him back more.

When I came to TMC, I did not find that kind of product-based enthusiasm broadly here. What I found was enthusiasm in the mission, and enthusiasm in the parts of the product that were cause for enthusiasm, not overall enthusiasm in the discovery of the product or the company. Indeed my efforts at finding stuff out, usually applauded in enthusiast forums, were often met with derision.

Oh the ridicule I got for suggesting my findings that Model X would have an adaptive spoiler or that Tesla would be working on Drive PX... On an average enthusiast forum, what I did would have been merely mundane (I was nothing special), average day at the forum, nothing extraordinary. Here it was basically made fun of - in addition to being called out as basically wrong.

I don't mind being called wrong or argued against, when it comes from an enthusiast who is coming to different conclusions. That is normal for any speculative part of a hobby, what I found here was that the speculation or discovery itself was not welcome. It was considered detrimental to the mission, is the best I could figure out, or simply not understood because the people were so different.

One problem also is that some people here are friends in real life and have formed cliques. It is hard to approach such cliques from the outside. Much of that has changed, though. None of that old spirit is present in the AP2 discovery nowadays, for example. There actually is the spirit of enthusiasm in the sense of seeking to know and understand everything, instead of seeking to advance an agenda for example.

Someone said this is not a car owner's forum in the traditional sense, or something to that effect, and indeed that used to be true IMO. I think it is getting more towards that, though, and I personally find that welcome and useful.

That being said, I can see that some people would like TMC to be more of an environmental mission forum or a TSLA stock-owners place, and that does collide with the goals of those who'd prefer a car enthusiast owner's club... It is an understandable and unfortunate clash of priorities. On that, I wish we can all get along.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

And I never actually called anyone a quote/unquote B!tch, but merely a baby. Nice attempt at distorting the truth though.

Calling someone a "B" is a well known shorthand for calling someone a b[itch].

If I were to hypothetically insult user "JohnDoe" on this forum by calling them a "POS", it wouldn't absolve me if not having typed out the acronym.

But if the link to my blog (only people making any money by clicking on it is Google btw) bothers you so much, please report it to the mods if it strokes your fragile ego and makes you feel like a big man behind the computer.

The fact that you write things like the above are exactly why I believe you should be banned.

 

[KarenRei]

TMC, as a community, has really gone downhill... There is a handful of members that are constantly dragging this place down with their constant negativity and anti-Tesla stances.

Wait, aren't you the one who kept insisting that a person who was very demonstrably a hardcore Tesla advocate was a liar and a troll when they described having a bad experience during a repair?

 

[bro1999]

Calling someone a "B" is a well known shorthand for calling someone a b[itch].

Your perception does not automatically become everyone else's reality, my "friend".

The fact that you write things like the above are exactly why I believe you should be banned.

You dedicate a whole post to trashing me, including distortion of supposed "facts", and you really expect me to respond in any kind of amicable way? What world do you live in?

Once again, it is completely hilarious that the people complaining about the "degradation of the community" are actually more the problem than who they rail against! It's like the people screaming at everyone to stop replying all by replying to all during a reply-all fest.

edit: in light of @ohmman 's post about signatures, I have added the link back to my blog in my sig.

 

[BestRadar]

I will throw my 2 cents into this conversation as a business owner and someone that has run several forums in the past., The problem here is the product..... If this was a discussion forum for a product that worked great, delivered on its promises, and took responsibility for issues that arise there would be no drama and it would be an exciting and enjoyable place.

The problem here is the product can bring out the worst in people because people are spending big dollars on these cars, Heck I never spent a $100k+ on a car before and I was expecting to be impressed with the vehicle and its service. To the contrary I have personally been deeply disappointed and left feeling that I was lied to.

I wont bore you with the AP 2.0 Promises or the FSD Promises or heck even the Automatic windshield wipers I am still waiting for, The problem is Tesla over promises and under delivers and that makes for angry customers.

What people dont want is censorship and hiding of problems because what good is any forum if its only one sided? We should not take our anger out on each other and we should focus our disappointment on the company itself. I took my stand and I joined the class action suit.

I really dont know what the best solution is because you have people that love the brand and others that hate it. I am somewhere in between.but I dont want to see anyone censored for voicing their opinions.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

What people dont want is censorship and hiding of problems because what good is any forum if its only one sided? We should not take our anger out on each other and we should focus our disappointment on the company itself. I took my stand and I joined the class action suit.

This isn't about hiding problems.

The issue is that a number of people at TMC are here for the purpose of sowing ill feelings towards Tesla and/or promoting other brands of vehicle. It's the insults, nasty insinuations, and FUD that aren't acceptable. I don't go to a BMW or Subaru forum to rag on their cars or insinuate that their future products will be delayed or uncompetitive. Why do some people feel the need to do this to Tesla?

I have no problem with owners posting their issues with AP2 or even participating in a lawsuit against Tesla, as you have done.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

I brought up Super Cruise because people were talking about the shortcomings of AP2, so I brought up Super Cruise (since OTHER TMC members have brought it up in comparison to Autopilot in other threads) and pondered how it would perform in comparison. Mentioning a competing autonomous technology is somehow trolling? Get real. I didn't even say anything bad about AP2 (enough was said by actual owners).

Posting irrelevant information about a future competitors product did not address the OP's problem with AP2 or further the discussion of what Tesla should do to remedy the issues.

What you did is essentially equivalent to going to a a thread where someone is posting that their nVidia GPU is overheating, and saying "I wonder how the next ATi (now AMD) video card will perform". Unhelpful. Or going to a for sale/trade thread where someone is selling their nVidia video card for $x and posting "ATi is releasing a video card that is $y cheaper next quarter".

This is at best very inconsiderate behavior. At Anandtech it was grounds for immediate ban.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The issue is that a number of people at TMC are here for the purpose of sowing ill feelings towards Tesla and/or promoting other brands of vehicle. It's the insults, nasty insinuations, and FUD that aren't acceptable. I don't go to a BMW or Subaru forum to rag on their cars or insinuate that their future products will be delayed or uncompetitive. Why do some people feel the need to do this to Tesla?

Competitive product comparisons are normal for any forum - indeed any purchase experience. They are thus part of the Tesla experience as well that TMC is a sharing place for.

I see very little of what you say actually happening here anyway. There is no significant contigent of, say, BMW owners here critiquing stuff. Mostly they are disillusioned Tesla owners or disillusioned Tesla followers.

And you know what, that is a real part of the current Tesla experience. There are disgruntled owners and followers. There are owners who are looking to competing products. To want it silenced IMO is to want to exclude a part of the real Tesla experience.

There are of course happy-with-Tesla people on TMC too. The more the merrier.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Competitive product comparisons are normal for any forum - indeed any purchase experience. They are thus part of the Tesla experience as well that TMC is a sharing place for.

The post I was referring to was a GM advertisement posted in the middle of a thread where an AP2 owner was talking about AP2 problems.

Advocating for another product is not a competitive comparison in this context. It's thread crapping.

 

[bro1999]

Posting irrelevant information about a future competitors product did not address the OP's problem with AP2 or further the discussion of what Tesla should do to remedy the issues.

What you did is essentially equivalent to going to a a thread where someone is posting that their nVidia GPU is overheating, and saying "I wonder how the next ATi (now AMD) video card will perform". Unhelpful. Or going to a for sale/trade thread where someone is selling their nVidia video card for $x and posting "ATi is releasing a video card that is $y cheaper next quarter".

This is at best very inconsiderate behavior. At Anandtech it was grounds for immediate ban.

Good thing you aren't a mod here. The body count would be through the roof.

 

[kort677]

This isn't about hiding problems.

The issue is that a number of people at TMC are here for the purpose of sowing ill feelings towards Tesla and/or promoting other brands of vehicle.

I think that those types are far and few between, maybe they're prevalent in the investors forums but I don't see too many posts like that at all. What I see are many people who have bought the most expensive car that they've ever bought that is not living up to the hype and they are posting their experiences and frustrations of the issues they are encountering with the car and dealing with a sometimes inept tesla staff who can be sometimes difficult to access and when you can get to them are not always competent. the "old guard" of enthusiasts might be more forgiving of the minor issues, a person who buys a 6 figure car because it is the coolest car around expects better and isn't as tolerant. In my personal case when my drive unit went bad I had service center people misinforming me, senior staff who were not helpful and I had to become that squeaky wheel in order to get my deserved replacement.
forums like this are a magnet for the frustrated and you need to separate those from the few but vocal trolls.

 

[Chopr147]

If you want the feel of the "early days" of TMC then go on over to Model 3 owners club forum. It is much more civilized though maybe not as busy. Probably somewhat like TMC a few years ago. I enjoy that forum more than TMC. But, being a masochist I keep coming back to TMC
Actually this is the first thread I have read in a month (it is SUMMER! by the way) and noth'in's changed

 

[tomas]

I think that those types are far and few between, maybe they're prevalent in the investors forums but I don't see too many posts like that at all. What I see are many people who have bought the most expensive car that they've ever bought that is not living up to the hype and they are posting their experiences and frustrations of the issues they are encountering with the car and dealing with a sometimes inept tesla staff who can be sometimes difficult to access and when you can get to them are not always competent. the "old guard" of enthusiasts might be more forgiving of the minor issues, a person who buys a 6 figure car because it is the coolest car around expects better and isn't as tolerant. In my personal case when my drive unit went bad I had service center people misinforming me, senior staff who were not helpful and I had to become that squeaky wheel in order to get my deserved replacement.
forums like this are a magnet for the frustrated and you need to separate those from the few but vocal trolls.

Anyone who has an issue or complaint and posts it factually... great. This forum is quite useful for getting sympathy and solutions. Members who are chronic and prolific complainers without anything constructive, those who always jump in to support the negative, and those who do not own a Tesla but constantly weigh in anti Tesla... I've got to question why they are doing it.

Likewise, those who ignore factual reports of issues, arguing blindly in support of Tesla... that would be an issue. However I do not see that 1/10 as much as the unbridled critics.

The right answer is balance. Tesla, like any business, is neither 100% good nor 100% evil. Ok to call out their fumbles, but much more credible if you also acknowledge their successes.

 

[oktane]

Is it wrong to complain if the issue still hasn't been resolved? Still waiting on my buyback or my refund. I'll even accept EAP working close to as described. I applaud those with the guts to participate in the class action suit.

 

[ohmman]

In most cases, the problem isn't content, it's tone. I pointed this out a while ago in one of @wk057's threads. He had a tendency to come out on the offensive, then he'd be surprised at the pushback. My suggestion was to rephrase it and lay off the heat because when you swing, people swing back. His next thread took a much more informative tone and was extremely cooperative. I don't pretend to know whether he took my advice, did it to show me he'd still get pushback, or neither, but the reaction difference is clear.

Curt, one sentence responses generally have a poor tone. Absolute assuredness nearly always does as well. Have an ounce of humility. This applies not only to those frustrated with Tesla, but to those defenders of Tesla. Repeating yourself is annoying to others.

Interjecting any material to get pleasure at the annoyance of others is trolling, and it is an offense that warrants a ban.

Regarding coming here to talk solely about the benefits of competitors' products, it's certainly close to the above. It's like joining the chess club, a game you don't play, and going on and on about how great checkers are. What would be the motivation there? It is different if you want to constructively compare the history of the games with the members. Tone, again, matters.

Talk to others like you're going to meet them in person later that day. Or do @malcolm's great suggestion and pretend that your most respected family member is reading what you're writing.

Dissent is not the problem. A severe lack of polite and effective communication skills is.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Members who are chronic and prolific complainers without anything constructive, those who always jump in to support the negative, and those who do not own a Tesla but constantly weigh in anti Tesla... I've got to question why they are doing it.

Likewise, those who ignore factual reports of issues, arguing blindly in support of Tesla... that would be an issue. However I do not see that 1/10 as much as the unbridled critics.

We agree on the theory.

In practice we see very different things, though. I guess that's what they call confirmation bias... we're all human...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If you want the feel of the "early days" of TMC then go on over to Model 3 owners club forum. It is much more civilized

People haven't gotten their cars yet.

*runs for cover*