Degradation of the Community...

[AnxietyRanger]

Is it wrong to complain if the issue still hasn't been resolved? Still waiting on my buyback or my refund. I'll even accept EAP working close to as described. I applaud those with the guts to participate in the class action suit.

Yep, here's the thing... some argue that repetitive cricitism is bad, however what about the instances when the criticism remails valid in a repetitive manner...

If one is mad about people complaining that - say - real EAP is nowhere to be seen, perhaps complain to Tesla for making thing so, instead of being bothered by those who dislike this state of affairs?

I mean, people repeat their happiness with Tesla too. If a state of affair remains, repetition is perfectly normal.

(Now, extreme cases excluded of course - as in anything.)

 

[ohmman]

If one is mad about people complaining that - say - real EAP is nowhere to be seen, perhaps complain to Tesla for making thing so, instead of being bothered by those who dislike this state of affairs?

If one is mad about - say - their real EAP is nowhere to be seen, perhaps complain to Tesla to make it so, instead of repeatedly spamming a forum?

Yeah, I agree.

 

[tomas]

In most cases, the problem isn't content, it's tone. I pointed this out a while ago in one of @wk057's threads. He had a tendency to come out on the offensive, then he'd be surprised at the pushback. My suggestion was to rephrase it and lay off the heat because when you swing, people swing back. His next thread took a much more informative tone and was extremely cooperative. I don't pretend to know whether he took my advice, did it to show me he'd still get pushback, or neither, but the reaction difference is clear.

Curt, one sentence responses generally have a poor tone. Absolute assuredness nearly always does as well. Have an ounce of humility. This applies not only to those frustrated with Tesla, but to those defenders of Tesla. Repeating yourself is annoying to others.

Interjecting any material to get pleasure at the annoyance of others is trolling, and it is an offense that warrants a ban.

Regarding coming here to talk solely about the benefits of competitors' products, it's certainly close to the above. It's like joining the chess club, a game you don't play, and going on and on about how great checkers are. What would be the motivation there? It is different if you want to constructively compare the history of the games with the members. Tone, again, matters.

Talk to others like you're going to meet them in person later that day. Or do @malcolm's great suggestion and pretend that your most respected family member is reading what you're writing.

Dissent is not the problem. A severe lack of polite and effective communication skills is.

Good thing you aren't a mod here. The body count would be through the roof.

How about mod for a day via lottery?

 

[tomas]

If one is mad about - say - their real EAP is nowhere to be seen, perhaps complain to Tesla to make it so, instead of repeatedly spamming a forum?

Yeah, I agree.

Or starting thread number 300 on the topic. Or making 30% of the posts on one thread.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If one is mad about - say - their real EAP is nowhere to be seen, perhaps complain to Tesla to make it so, instead of repeatedly spamming a forum?

Yeah, I agree.

Sure, one can do that too. Judging by past precedent:

1) Complaining to Tesla privately about a non-trivial issue, usually not helpful.
2) Public pressure can be helpful, but probably more in the sense of informing others than changing Tesla.
3) Legal action, most helpful.

Perhaps a combo is the best.

 

[bonnie]

And another thread jumps the shark. Kippis!

 

[lunitiks]

 

[Canuck]

People haven't gotten their cars yet.
*runs for cover*

I don't get posts like these. I know it's a joke (and it is funny) but as they every say in every joke there's an ounce (or grain) of truth and this is the argument of many of the dissenters -- that Teslas are riddled with problems, or don't meet the hype, such as with AP2.0, or how long it took to roll out AP1.0, the problems with the X release, and the list goes on and on.

We are also told that some of us here, me included, ignore reality of people's problems with Tesla which they try to tell us are widespread. If that was the case, Tesla would not have the best rating, in what many consider the most important category when it comes to a product, the "would you buy again question." Tesla wins that one hands down -- and by a long shot -- even with growing pains and all:

Rank Brand Would Buy Again
1 Tesla 91%
2 Porsche 84%
3 Audi 77%
4 Subaru 76%
5 Toyota 76%
6 Honda 75%
7 Mazda 74%
8 Chrysler 73%
9 Chevrolet 73%
10 Lexus 73%
11 GMC 73%
12 Lincoln 73%
13 Hyundai 73%
14 BMW 72%
15 Ford 72%
16 Mini 71%
17 Ram 70%
18 Kia 70%
19 Mercedes-Benz 69%
20 Volvo 69%
21 Buick 68%
22 Cadillac 68%
23 Dodge 66%
24 Volkswagen 64%
25 Jeep 60%
26 Acura 58%
27 Infiniti 58%
28 Nissan 58%
29 Fiat 53%

This is from Consumer reports: Car Brands Ranked by Owner Satisfaction

In another thread @jeffro01 lamented that in the olden days people with critical posts would have been shouted out as "shorts".

That's strange that I don't remember those days. I remember a lot of critical posts being debated, many by WK057, and I don't think anyone ever called him a short even though it's my understanding that he is, or was, a stock trader. We dealt with his issues, as with many others here. I do thinks shorts have posted but I doubt anyone thinks the people this thread was directed at are shorts. I certainly do not.

In my view, "shorts" and "longs" are probably used more now here than in the past. When I support Tesla here I'm often told that's likely because I hold TSLA -- which I do. That's fine to write me off, but how do they respond to Consumer Reports and Tesla's "would buy again" sky high rating? Crickets -- that's how -- since it's always ignored when I post it. But we're told we're the ones ignoring reality even in the face of facts that say otherwise.

Curt, one sentence responses generally have a poor tone. Absolute assuredness nearly always does as well. Have an ounce of humility.

I really wish you were a political adviser to a certain someone.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@Canuck I am on the record as saying I think Model 3 will be a success.

Tesla has singlehandedly willed BEVs into existence and are rightfully being rewarded with loyalty for it. They've made a great drivetrain and a software updateable platform that obviously have little competition so far and have captured public's imagination widely.

That is quite an achievement no matter what else may be going on. Job well done there.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

One thing people just fail to realize is that there are those of us who just find Tesla's questionable actions so unnecessary and thus disappointing.

Not because we think the product is rubbish. No, because we think the product is great and didn't deserve or need those antics.

 

[brianman]

Teslas are riddled with problems, or don't meet the hype, such as with AP2.0, or how long it took to roll out AP1.0, the problems with the X release, and the list goes on and on.

We are also told that some of us here, me included, ignore reality of people's problems with Tesla which they try to tell us are widespread. If that was the case, Tesla would not have the best rating, in what many consider the most important category when it comes to a product, the "would you buy again question." Tesla wins that one hands down -- and by a long shot -- even with growing pains and all:

Rank Brand Would Buy Again
1 Tesla 91%
...

Just a data point that might help address your confusion: There is only one company in that list that makes an EV that I want to drive -- regardless of not-yet-delivered features that have already been paid for.

Would I buy again? Yes, because there are no compelling alternatives. While Consumer Reports might consider that a measure of satisfaction, I think that's a narrow view.

Am I satisfied as a customer? Yes and no. I'm on my third Model S. I'll likely buy Tesla again. Does that mean I'm completely satisfied with the brand or the leadership? Definitely not.

There is literally no other game in town.

 

[brianman]

One thing people just fail to realize is that there are those of us who just find Tesla's questionable actions so unnecessary and thus disappointing.

Not because we think the product is rubbish. No, because we think the product is great and didn't deserve or need those antics.

Completely agree. And some of those antics and decisions have directly hurt the company's mission.

 

[Sawyer8888]

I believe I have read every post in this thread, and here is what I think about some recent posts:

This is a thread discussing Tesla's marketing materials for educating customers on the difference between Model S and Model 3. @bro1999 again brings in an irrelevant topic (the Chevy Bolt's interior) and then proceeds to insult and belittle another forum member after being called out for it.

1) I enjoy reading one's opinion about a competitor. It's just an opinion, even if it is loosely associated with the thread.
2) I do not enjoy seeing condescending remarks and personal attacks. If you don't like something or someone, distance yourself. Relatiation on TMC does no good.​

I dont want to see anyone censored for voicing their opinions.

I don't want to see any censorship either, however negative personal attacks should be dealt with accordingly.​

The issue is that a number of people at TMC are here for the purpose of sowing ill feelings towards Tesla and/or promoting other brands of vehicle. It's the insults, nasty insinuations, and FUD that aren't acceptable.

I can't be certain others are here simply to promote other brands and speak poorly of Tesla. It's an opinion, and you may be correct. I actually posted an old Lexus commercial the other day speaking to their adherence to tight body panels and their "pursuit of perfection". I wish Tesla could do the same. But you are definately right in that the insults are in very poor taste.​

Why do some people feel the need to do this to Tesla?

Why do people feel the way they do about Tesla? Because we expect more, just like Elon I suppose.​

Posting irrelevant information about a future competitors product did not address the OP's problem with AP2 or further the discussion of what Tesla should do to remedy the issues.

This is at best very inconsiderate behavior.

Inconsiderate behavior? I disagree. It's a different viewpoint - far from a personal attack. I have to believe most are not done intentionally to derail a thread. Driving slower than others in the passing lane or center lane of a 3 or 4 lane highway is inconsiderate (cell phone in face sometimes). Many do this ignorant to the fact that they are being inconsiderate and breaking the law. Posting what some consider irrelevant may be relevent to others. Yeah, I don't like those who camp out in middle or passing lanes.​

What I see are many people who have bought the most expensive car that they've ever bought that is not living up to the hype and they are posting their experiences and frustrations of the issues they are encountering with the car

That's me. I try to add helpful information where possible and always avoid lashing out at others. It's a good car, but for me, it has not lived up to the hype.​

This is from Consumer reports: Car Brands Ranked by Owner Satisfaction

Ah, Consumer Reports. I question their accuracy. I am returning a new washing machine that does not wash. CR said it's pretty good. The people who actually use it said otherwise.
​

In conclusion, we should be able to share our experiences and opinions without being ridiculed and without disparaging others. It's that simple. When that starts breaking down, moderation is needed.

​

Enjoy your Labor Day Weekend everyone!

 

[Struja]

I don't get posts like these. I know it's a joke (and it is funny) but as they every say in every joke there's an ounce (or grain) of truth and this is the argument of many of the dissenters -- that Teslas are riddled with problems, or don't meet the hype, such as with AP2.0, or how long it took to roll out AP1.0, the problems with the X release, and the list goes on and on.

I see both sides to this argument. I've only owned mine for about 3 months and let me tell you about my experience.
I test drove the car first in March 2016 (I believe). I was sold.. by a mile. Best car I had ever driven by a long shot. Instant and shameless fanboy!!! So, I made a deal on a Model S90D and I had a disastrous trade-in experience, where I was called a "liar" at the Tesla SC. I was livid. I walked away from six figure purchase over $2,000. I was so angry, I was going to spend my six figures on a Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or the new Alpha Romeo (Giulia) but Tesla would NEVER see a penny of my money.

So, I drove each and every brand. (I have been a LONG time Lexus owner - so it really took a lot to get me to move - plus my wife's entire family is from Michigan so that was reason alone not to buy an "American" car - that was a joke).

In any event, after 10 months and way too many test drives, I sold my IS350 privately and sheepishly purchased my S90D. I avoided everyone that raised my ire the last time around but I came back because of the car.

In that same 10 months, I had read (sometimes on here) by some about problems after problems. I've read about AP2 and I think the people who raise concerns are right to do so. I've read complaints, some legit, some no so much. Did it sway me? Maybe a bit.

When I got my car, I had an AC issue almost immediately and an annoying squeak between the front seat and the middle console. The SC fixed the AC issue and a TMC member fixed the seat issue. At first, I was a bit worried that compared to my Lexus, this Tesla was going to be a nightmare, but I don't think that for a second and its because of the car!!!

At the end of the day, not everyone will love their Tesla and some will have legitimate reasons to hate it and maybe hate the company, but the masses are not so malleable to be convinced by a internet forum.

I am on here to share my experiences, write the odd funny line or two and find reasons not to be working. No offense to any of you, but nothing you write will dictate how I feel about my car or Tesla as a company. I respect everyone's opinion but even more so, I respect everyone's right to voice that opinion (even where I disagree with it).

So my take on Tesla is this... continue to innovate, continue to be a leader, be prepared to be called out when you screw up and as long as you keep making cars like my S90D, I will be your fanboy!

(As an aside - when I lived in NJ, I returned my first IS350 pursuant to NJ's Lemon Law which is about the best in the USA. I was a Lexus fanboy and still am to this day, but the fist IS they sold me wasn't up to snuff and 1 year after ownership, they had to give me a new one, no questions asked).

 

[bonnie]

Some on this thread have managed to convince others that the point is about silencing contrary opinions.

It was about civility & not attacking other forum members directly or indirectly. Most people here love vigorous debate. I do. But I don't love the either direct attacks on others or the more subtle attacks (yes, I see you when you do that). It derails any possibility for subsequent good discussion.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

As I've said before (though not in these exact cryptic words), even though Tesla is quite bad, Teslas are so good, we buy Teslas despite them being a Tesla.

If that doesn't make sense to you, to understand where people like myself and @Struja are coming from, please give it an effort and try to. It would be much appreciated.

 

[Struja]

Some on this thread have managed to convince others that the point is about silencing contrary opinions.

It was about civility & not attacking other forum members directly or indirectly. Most people here love vigorous debate. I do. But I don't love the either direct attacks on others or the more subtle attacks (yes, I see you when you do that). It derails any possibility for subsequent good discussion.

I totally agree that there is no place for the personal attack.

Usually, it comes from a lack of response to the substance of what is being said. Isn't that one of those dreaded illogical forms of reasoning?

In any event, I've been reading this one thread on electricity rates in Ontario for about 3 days now, and no matter what I do, I still can't understand what they are saying.

I might need to start my own forum for simpleton Tesla owners like myself!!!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I totally agree that there is no place for the personal attack.

Truth be told, I think there are passive aggressive and micro-aggression type of response on both sides of the aisle. Probably more commonly than are acknowledged by ourselves even.

That's human nature. People have histories and that shows.

We're somewhat like distant relatives. There's always that infamous fight at an uncle's birthday in '85 or something that keeps flaring up year after year when the night goes on long enough...

Hey, TMC sounds like a community after all.

 

[Struja]

As I've said before (though not in these exact cryptic words), even though Tesla is quite bad, Teslas are so good, we buy Teslas despite them being a Tesla.

If that doesn't make sense to you, to understand where people like myself and @Struja are coming from, please give it an effort and try to. It would be much appreciated.

I don't have enough experience with Tesla to think they are quite bad. I think the way I was handled during the first purchase was quite bad.

I also think some of the horror stories I've read about AP2 are quite bad (simply because it's dangerous), but so far I am in LOVE with my car and probably neutral to overall slightly positive on Tesla as a company.

Every company will have its issues. Lexus, prides itself on customer service experience. When I had my first one, I had a recurring problem they couldn't diagnose (probably because problems with the car were so rare). It turned out it was a problem with the ECU. Car was in the shop for 21 days (over three separate visits to Lexus). NJ's Lemon Law (at the time) was that if your car was in the shop for 20 days during the first 2 years of ownership, you could return it as a Lemon.

Lexus was NOT in a rush to give me a new car, no matter how much I praised them as a "consumer friendly" company. I got the new car because of the legislation. So, as with most everything, I see the good and I see the bad.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I don't have enough experience with Tesla to think they are quite bad. I think the way I was handled during the first purchase was quite bad.

Fair enough.

My comment wasn't exact anyway, it was just trying to convey the thought that Tesla the company is separate from Tesla the product and the decision to buy or not to buy.