Did Tesla design cars to be able to take a range extender just incase?

[ewoodrick]

Lots of those are very slow, single chargers that do not always work. Say each car is going to take 2 hours to charge, if your third in the queue you’ll be there for 6 hours. That’s not going to be a very enjoyable trip.

That's just FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt).
Even if they are 50kW, that doesn't mean that you have to fill up on them, just add enough to get you back out to faster ones.
And if the lines were so long, there would be a LOT MORE of them.

But let me quote you:

A large but sparsely inhabited part which means there’s also almost no EV infrastructure.

It's definitely range anxiety and FUD.
It is FAR FROM being a "no EV infrastructure" area.

All of this goes back to your initial statement.
YOU are the one with range anxiety. You still don't believe that the infrastructure is out there.

Many of the chargers that I looked at seemed to be in municipal parking lots. I'm assuming that they are they areas in which you would be visiting any way and you can charge while you tour while you visit the local sites.
And assuming an overnight stay or two, there seems to be a lot of opportunities with L2 connections.

Honestly, it seems like a nearly perfect EV road trip!

 

[FastLaneJB]

That's just FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt).
Even if they are 50kW, that doesn't mean that you have to fill up on them, just add enough to get you back out to faster ones.
And if the lines were so long, there would be a LOT MORE of them.

But let me quote you:


It's definitely range anxiety and FUD.
It is FAR FROM being a "no EV infrastructure" area.

All of this goes back to your initial statement.
YOU are the one with range anxiety. You still don't believe that the infrastructure is out there.

Many of the chargers that I looked at seemed to be in municipal parking lots. I'm assuming that they are they areas in which you would be visiting any way and you can charge while you tour while you visit the local sites.
And assuming an overnight stay or two, there seems to be a lot of opportunities with L2 connections.

Honestly, it seems like a nearly perfect EV road trip!

Thank you for schooling me from America on my own country.

50KW is the fastest you'll find up there, with a good smattering of slower ones. Some which do not work.

There's not a lot of them because there's not much of a business model to put them out there and the reason they charge so slow is because there's not the electricity network in a lot of places to do them faster either.

It's not range anxiety but charging anxiety. If the range is known which it is and chargers are plentiful then there's no issue. The issue is that the chargers are not plentiful, they are slow and in some cases broken with the next nearest one being a good distance away on terrain and offen weather that won't be kind to an EV's range.

Is it possible? Sure. Do I want to do it though? No, not until there's more chargers, faster chargers and reliable chargers. Only the Scottish government has put a few in there because no private company really is interested.

 

[GRiLLA]

Thank you for schooling me from America on my own country.

50KW is the fastest you'll find up there, with a good smattering of slower ones. Some which do not work.

There's not a lot of them because there's not much of a business model to put them out there and the reason they charge so slow is because there's not the electricity network in a lot of places to do them faster either.

It's not range anxiety but charging anxiety. If the range is known which it is and chargers are plentiful then there's no issue. The issue is that the chargers are not plentiful, they are slow and in some cases broken with the next nearest one being a good distance away on terrain and offen weather that won't be kind to an EV's range.

Is it possible? Sure. Do I want to do it though? No, not until there's more chargers, faster chargers and reliable chargers. Only the Scottish government has put a few in there because no private company really is interested.

So other than a driving holiday in the Highlands, where there is infrastructure but you are scared it might be broken despite lots of EVs doing NC500, there being several hotels/airbnbs with 7kW chargers, and 3 pin charging is universally available, there's really not many other scenarios in the UK where you need a range extender. I strongly still feel that range anxiety is in the category 2a for people that are misinformed/wrong

 

[Bouba]

I know this really is something Elon has constantly said is the wrong way to go but lets say the pure EV market really does stall and a certain amount of the population will only accept a PHEV at least for the foreseeable future. Does Tesla ignore that portion of the market or have a play there also? I mean if people charge them properly and the range is sufficient, they are still way better than a pure ICE car.

There's a rather large space at the back of the car for under boot storage. If they had to, a small range extender petrol engine might potentially fit there? I mean I'm thinking tiny like the i3's tiny little engine. It's at the back so exhaust is easy to put in, make the battery a somewhat smaller and put in a fuel tank. Doesn't power the wheels, just a generator for the car.

I'm not an engineer, maybe it won't fit but Tesla are masters of packaging, I think it could do. The cars are efficient, it doesn't need to generate a lot of power. I think on the i3's they actually were speed limited when using the range extender engine because it couldn't generate enough load for full acceleration but it was enough to happily keep driving without issue.

I highly doubt they'll do this of course, just wondering if that space at the back maybe was designed as a plan B, just incase.

If Tesla are the masters of packaging, and they have the space....I would prefer to see a spare wheel

 

[FastLaneJB]

If Tesla are the masters of packaging, and they have the space....I would prefer to see a spare wheel

No spare wheel as it’ll add to the weight of the car and decrease efficiency. Sadly not just Tesla, spare wheels are mostly a thing of the past.

 

[thewishy]

Lots of those are very slow, single chargers that do not always work. Say each car is going to take 2 hours to charge, if your third in the queue you’ll be there for 6 hours. That’s not going to be a very enjoyable trip.

So, the highland council chargers are limited to 45 minutes charge time. That does mean that nobody gets a full charge, which is pants. But does mean there aren't massive issues with queuing.
We managed with the public chargers when we went up there for our first trip. There were a few enforced lunch breaks (Most the chargers have picnic benches nearby, we have a camp stove and had tea). The chargers are old, and not massively reliable. On the other hand, if you're not going to get more than a 50% topup in the 45 minutes and they're only 50kw*, you can stop early without speed penalty.
On our second trip, we booked accommodation with EV chargers, which made life a lot easier
General comment, the roads are much slower up there, and your battery goes quite far.
*Typically between 34kw and 50kw in practice.

3 pin charging is universally available

On the first trip
1) Airbnb advertised with charger, charger worked correctly (Car delivered early, and we had booked most of the accommodation before we decided we'd EV it)
2) Happy to provide 3pin
3) Car parking 40m away from a power socket, electrics new but a feed from the main house. Slightly chaotic artistic owner who had painted the consumer unit so a reset of a breaker would cause cosmetic damage.
4) Car parking 30m away from power socket
5) Utter refusal - a previous person with an EV had plugged in without asking, didn't pay for the electric and popped the breaker to the hut by leaving the EV charging while they did their cooking. Owner didn't know where the breaker was and had to call an electrician
6) Initial discussion, but refusal because the owner "Would have to put her direct debit up"
7) Arrived late and couldn't be arsed with the discussion, there was a supercharger nearby

On the second trip, we got accommodation with chargers or at least near a cluster of public chargers, and had zero problems

Even if they are 50kW, that doesn't mean that you have to fill up on them, just add enough to get you back out to faster ones.
And if the lines were so long, there would be a LOT MORE of them.

It's hard to make a judgement around an areas provision just by looking at an EV charging map and thinking "Should be doable". There aren't any >50kw chargers in the highlands (Except a small 75kw install at John O'Groats), so it's not really a case of limping to the nearest fast charger. On my first trip we didn't see a charger faster than 50kw for 8 days.

Charging in Scotland was Scottish government funded at one point, and it was great 5 years ago. But there isn't funding for further expansion, and the pricing for the government funded chargers has made it unattractive for commercial competition.

 

[init6]

There aren't any >50kw chargers in the highlands, so it's not really a case of limping to the nearest fast charger.

Osprey have 3 75kW chargers at JO'G. Still not super fast, but shows that the private sector are moving slowly North. With more EVs on the road I suspect the business model may well change in the fullness of time. Or 'Coming Soon' as they say on here

 

[thewishy]

Osprey have 3 75kW chargers at JO'G. Still not super fast, but shows that the private sector are moving slowly North. With more EVs on the road I suspect the business model may well change in the fullness of time. Or 'Coming Soon' as they say on here

Forgot they fitted those. TBH, was glad of the 50kw Gridserve unit at JO'G, it worked, actually provided 50kw and didn't have a time limit.

 

[hoppo1979]

The range extender is called the Supercharger network and its incredibly efficient!

 

[Dangerous Fish]

You either want to be part of the solution or stay part of the problem. The choice is yours for now.

If you want to do a driving tour of the Highlands of Scotland in an EV and have range anxiety, you can simply sit down before you go and plan your route/stopovers to make charging part of the tour. There are some very nice hotels around with slow chargers. If you don't have the budget then you can buy some haggis & chips and enjoy it in the car while charging.

Maybe the whole idea of spending the majority of the time behind the wheel driving isn't necessarily the best one anyway?

 

[FastLaneJB]

So, the highland council chargers are limited to 45 minutes charge time. That does mean that nobody gets a full charge, which is pants. But does mean there aren't massive issues with queuing.
We managed with the public chargers when we went up there for our first trip. There were a few enforced lunch breaks (Most the chargers have picnic benches nearby, we have a camp stove and had tea). The chargers are old, and not massively reliable. On the other hand, if you're not going to get more than a 50% topup in the 45 minutes and they're only 50kw*, you can stop early without speed penalty.
On our second trip, we booked accommodation with EV chargers, which made life a lot easier
General comment, the roads are much slower up there, and your battery goes quite far.
*Typically between 34kw and 50kw in practice.


On the first trip
1) Airbnb advertised with charger, charger worked correctly (Car delivered early, and we had booked most of the accommodation before we decided we'd EV it)
2) Happy to provide 3pin
3) Car parking 40m away from a power socket, electrics new but a feed from the main house. Slightly chaotic artistic owner who had painted the consumer unit so a reset of a breaker would cause cosmetic damage.
4) Car parking 30m away from power socket
5) Utter refusal - a previous person with an EV had plugged in without asking, didn't pay for the electric and popped the breaker to the hut by leaving the EV charging while they did their cooking. Owner didn't know where the breaker was and had to call an electrician
6) Initial discussion, but refusal because the owner "Would have to put her direct debit up"
7) Arrived late and couldn't be arsed with the discussion, there was a supercharger nearby

On the second trip, we got accommodation with chargers or at least near a cluster of public chargers, and had zero problems

It's hard to make a judgement around an areas provision just by looking at an EV charging map and thinking "Should be doable". There aren't any >50kw chargers in the highlands (Except a small 75kw install at John O'Groats), so it's not really a case of limping to the nearest fast charger. On my first trip we didn't see a charger faster than 50kw for 8 days.

Charging in Scotland was Scottish government funded at one point, and it was great 5 years ago. But there isn't funding for further expansion, and the pricing for the government funded chargers has made it unattractive for commercial competition.

Thank you, a very useful post based on real experiences.

As I said it's do-able but that's a lot of faff. A range extender would remove all that faff or of course putting in the charging infrastructure it really needs would also solve it.

 

[FastLaneJB]

You either want to be part of the solution or stay part of the problem. The choice is yours for now.

If you want to do a driving tour of the Highlands of Scotland in an EV and have range anxiety, you can simply sit down before you go and plan your route/stopovers to make charging part of the tour. There are some very nice hotels around with slow chargers. If you don't have the budget then you can buy some haggis & chips and enjoy it in the car while charging.

Maybe the whole idea of spending the majority of the time behind the wheel driving isn't necessarily the best one anyway?

The problem is the lack of enough reliable charging points, why is that my responsibility to part of the solution? I don't have the ability to solve the charging network up there but until they do I'll either avoid it or hire an ICE for the road trip. It would after all be for a holiday / break from life and having to plan my break carefully around the ability to charge my car and not get stranded doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

The problem is the lack of enough reliable charging points, why is that my responsibility to part of the solution? I don't have the ability to solve the charging network up there but until they do I'll either avoid it or hire an ICE for the road trip. It would after all be for a holiday / break from life and having to plan my break carefully around the ability to charge my car and not get stranded doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me.

Maybe you're not the type who likes to plan where they're going to stay and visit on holiday? Fair enough, but for me I like to know where I'm staying, what the food's like and take in some 'special places' I've researched and booked to make sure I can get in there. These days, that also may mean researching nearby chargers or choosing one hotel with charging over another without.
With a Tesla, you've got the luxury of being able to drive a lot further between stops than most other cars. With an overnight stay, even if you were in a B&B a 13A plug would probably be enough.

Anyway, at the end of the day, Teslas will never have an ICE range extender and they were never planned and are more difficult to engineer into a car than retro-fitting one to the storage compartment.
I suppose you could buy a portable genny and top up each time you stopped to admire the view. That look would go down really well.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Maybe you're not the type who likes to plan where they're going to stay and visit on holiday? Fair enough, but for me I like to know where I'm staying, what the food's like and take in some 'special places' I've researched and booked to make sure I can get in there. These days, that also may mean researching nearby chargers or choosing one hotel with charging over another without.
With a Tesla, you've got the luxury of being able to drive a lot further between stops than most other cars. With an overnight stay, even if you were in a B&B a 13A plug would probably be enough.

Anyway, at the end of the day, Teslas will never have an ICE range extender and they were never planned and are more difficult to engineer into a car than retro-fitting one to the storage compartment.
I suppose you could buy a portable genny and top up each time you stopped to admire the view. That look would go down really well.

I've not a massive amount of experience of booking hotels with EV chargers but I'd rather get a nice place to stay rather than a mediocre one that also has an EV charger. First time we booked a hotel with an EV charger on booking.com we drove around their car park looking for the charger and couldn't find it, went into the reception to ask where it was to be told they don't have EV charging... Good job I'd decided to top up a bit more on a Supercharger stop just incase all the hotel chargers were full or broken. I'd not considered that they didn't have any at all when they advertised they did...

Diesel generator is a good idea. Looking up a 50KW one is rather large so will probably need a diesel support car to tow it for me also but I like your thinking

 

[Dangerous Fish]

I've not a massive amount of experience of booking hotels with EV chargers but I'd rather get a nice place to stay rather than a mediocre one that also has an EV charger. First time we booked a hotel with an EV charger on booking.com we drove around their car park looking for the charger and couldn't find it, went into the reception to ask where it was to be told they don't have EV charging... Good job I'd decided to top up a bit more on a Supercharger stop just incase all the hotel chargers were full or broken. I'd not considered that they didn't have any at all when they advertised they did...

Diesel generator is a good idea. Looking up a 50KW one is rather large so will probably need a diesel support car to tow it for me also but I like your thinking

Oh I've got a couple of horror stories when it comes to charging at places which were supposed to have working chargers, but they both happened relatively early on in my EV-owning timeline and you live and learn. I did. I also have plenty of stories I could tell you of almost running out of petrol in my ICE days. It happens but as long as you have a contingency of some sort you get through it.

There are portable DC charge packs around which you might want to look at. A bit like having a 1 gallon petrol can in the boot, but not as smelly.
Or maybe a roof-mounted wind generator to top up as you go?

 

[Adopado]

If anyone’s range challenge means that they choose not to zip around the NC500 whilst barely stopping then that sounds like a “win” to me!

 

[init6]

Back to the original post, can you imagine the conversation?

Elon: Love the design of the Model 3! What's that little storage space under the trunk for?
Designer: That's so we can offer an option to fill it up with dozens of moving parts.

Designer goes the way of radar and stalks...

 

[ewoodrick]

The problem is the lack of enough reliable charging points, why is that my responsibility to part of the solution? I don't have the ability to solve the charging network up there but until they do I'll either avoid it or hire an ICE for the road trip. It would after all be for a holiday / break from life and having to plan my break carefully around the ability to charge my car and not get stranded doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me.

Look at Plugshare.com. They have reliability ratings and comments from drivers. It's pretty easy, even from here in the states, to see what options are available and their reliability. And to also see that Teslas are in the area all the time.

Now that you have talked more, you seem to have pretty bad range anxiety. Plan a trip up into the area as an adventure. Expect the worse, that you may have to spend hours at L2 locations, or even plug into standard wall plugs somewhere. I'm guessing there may be campgrounds in the area, they can be good for charging.
You should be able to top off in Inverness and make it up to Melvich AND BACK to Inverness on a single charge anyway. And there's destination chargers along the way for emergncies.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

This post just popped up from a Model 3 owner on a FB group I follow:

"Just back from doing the North Coast 500. No range anxiety. Plenty of chargers, albeit needed planning to know where you’re heading. Car don’t miss a beat. A friend in a petrol car had more range anxiety than me at one point! Also, coming down one of the big mountains, my Wh per mile was -400!
Two tips: don’t rely on Tesla nav for chargers. It barely has any. Use ZapMap or similar. There are loads. Purchase the Charge Scotland card as mobile signal is spotty. Allows you to just tap the card."

HTH

 

[Unclepaul]

It seems that instead of range anxiety, the worry seems to be more like working high speed charger anxiety.
As EVs get longer range, faster charging with better battery chemistry, the anxiety is not with the cars but with the chargers.

Elon seems to agree, and after taking a hard look at his Supercharger team, decided to bin them all and start over. He knows, that the charging system is the key to the successful adoption of EVs.