Disappointed with the D unveiling

[AnxietyRanger]

A little sad that an impressive "refresh" of the Model S is causing so many negative feelings/threads.

That the sensors installed are not automatically a "self-driving" car. It seems to me the sensor package is inadequate for any kind of autonomous driving. It is good and what is expected on a refresh of an expensive car in 2014. In 2014, it means nothing. Next year - some helpful tools. But it isn't like this sensor package is enough to allow safe driving by itself. I mean aren't we talking about 16 feet to the side and back - that could never be safe to do a lane change on the highway without a person involved. When regulations come out, there will be minimum requirements of sensors and there is zero chance Tesla nailed it.

For the U.S., Tesla states AutoPilot will eventually allow on-ramp/off-ramp autonomous freeway drive. This is what they state on the order page, so I expect it to be true for all cars getting AutoPilot. That sounds pretty self-driving to me. Of course that is still ways off from a full self-driving car, but still the change to standard equipment is impressive and, personally speaking, without precedent I could recall as a rolling update (and not something backed into a facelift or the like).

For anyone following the forums, all these upgrades were expected. If ACC was critically important to someone, the advice here would be to wait to order as we all know it is coming. AWD was also expected with some people feeling it would happen before X, same time as X or just after. Again, if someone really wanted it, the advice would be to wait.

Of course, lots of buyers don't follow the forums. One could argue that spending $100k on something without doing adequate research opens you up to such things and then perhaps the sympathy is diminished.

Who expected that sensor package - and as a standard feature? I would say, reasonably there was no way people ordering months ago could have known. AWD, that we knew was coming, although not imagining the performance delta. Some new feature upgrades and options in the pipeline, sure, that could be expected. But as Elon Musk himself admitted in the VF interview, people didn't anticipate the magnitude. How could they have, this is quite unprecedented. And beyond that, knowing that a guy ordering at the same time as you would get all that, and you wouldn't, again something very hard to plan for and anticipate. Add to this the likes of breser, who were pushed forward in production apparently to meet a quota and missing out.

Maybe all those posts that make you sad are room for customer satisfaction improvement at Tesla? I do sympathize. I don't want anyone to feel unhappy here, you included. The reaction is something to learn from. We as individuals and community can surely learn something as well, but so definitely can Tesla the company.

(For Europe, it is true regulations etc. may keep the functionality less than true self-driving and more in line with that the likes of Audi and BMW already offer today here, but still neverthless and impressive array of new standard features that often elsewhere cost a pretty penny as options.)

 

[simonog]

(For Europe, it is true regulations etc. may keep the functionality less than true self-driving and more in line with that the likes of Audi and BMW already offer today here, but still neverthless and impressive array of new standard features that often elsewhere cost a pretty penny as options.)

Wise words. Based in the UK (and in love with my P85+), I can think of many scenarios that automated driving today would struggle to do other than be extremely dangerous. Yes, the use case of clearly maked lanes on a 200 mile motorway (freeway) is just difficult and solvable, whereas roadworks, roundabouts (rotaries) and such seem to me to differ enough that defining the rules to programme seem impossible.

 

[Krugerrand]

For me, it was more about the fact that I felt those feeling slighted deserved more from us than "deal with it" and that I think the community here would benefit from being able to offer more support than that.

And I think those at Tesla, who are working their butts off trying to do the impossible for all of us, deserve more than they are getting from some. :wink:

 

[breser]

Has breser even talked to Tesla yet? I know he's posted multiple posts about the situation here, but I haven't seen anything about correspondence with the company.

I spoke to a Tesla employee at delivery about the sensors. She said she knew nothing about them (very possibly true). My girlfriend (who was with me) swears she told us that not getting them was no big deal that they could be retrofitted. I suspect she was just trying to answer questions when she didn't have the information to answer the questions. That's Tesla's fault and is something that should be fixed. As I mentioned earlier in one of the threads the answers myself and others got at delivery discouraged me from refusing delivery.

I've had one conversation with the Northwest Delivery Manager last week, that was mostly about the fact that my DS essentially ignored me. It was hard to talk about this issue because quite frankly, Tesla didn't want to talk about unannounced features. Also at the time I thought it was at best lane departure, speed assist and ACC.

After Thursday night it was clear these sensors are far more than that. Which is when I started posting in this thread. I wrote a rather lengthy email to ownership on Friday about how I felt about the situation. Haven't received a response yet but that's not surprising it was late in the day on Friday when I sent it.

I looked up some articles on 'early adopter' earlier this evening because of another discussion. I've noticed a lot of people lately (not singling anyone out in particular) have liked to use the term, like the coolness factor ... but don't like the rest of what comes with it: Willingness to deal with technology that isn't fully baked yet, quickly obsolete, overpriced in comparison to what comes shortly after, etc.

But one line in particular struck me: Early adopters are attracted to the new technology and to the exclusivity of the new technology.

Think about that in terms of how upset people have been. There has been no period of exclusivity for some of these Model S buyers. It's not that they're not getting the car they planned on getting for the price they wanted to pay. It's not that the car won't do everything it's supposed to do. The car is just as awesome as it was. But it's no longer the BEST. The exclusivity of having the best is gone.

Everyone is different and no one size fits all. But this one resonated in terms of level of emotion vs. exclusivity time.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who are most certainly upset for the reasons you describe. I do not think I am one of them. For one thing I live in the Puget Sound area, I see a Tesla pretty much every time I go out, often 3 or 4 of them. I didn't buy the best P85+. I didn't even buy all the options you can get on an 85. There is no exclusivity here.

If the upgrade we're talking about had been upgraded seats or an improved sun visor or something else like that I wouldn't be that worried about it. I understand that changes are going to get folded into production. If we were talking about a new option that had been added just after I received delivery I wouldn't feel unhappy.

Instead we're talking about probably the most significant base hardware upgrade the company has ever applied to the S. This isn't just some new upgraded part. This will drive the improvement of the car over the next year or so via software.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

All this talk of disappointment is, in itself, disappointing.

I'm in Canada for the week. I don't have any of the new goodness in my 14 month old Model S, yet I miss it terribly and check on it every day using my app as if it were a toddler in the other room. I bought this car to drive. I didn't buy it to inflate my ego or to be the biggest and baddest person on the block. I knew the day I took delivery that the car was probably already obsolete. So what? New stuff doesn't change the stuff I already have, and love. If I wanted the new stuff, I'd sell or trade my Model S and get a new one. But doing that is the least green thing I could do, and one of the reasons why I bought this car was to be greener.

If you want shiatsu massage seats, then wait. If you want the mind bending function, then wait. If you want heads up display, then wait. Because any time you take delivery, whether today or next year, there will always be another, better Model S around the corner. That's guaranteed because technology doesn't stand still. And as many have said, the Model S is basically an iPad on wheels. Everything is electronic and computerized, and that world evolves faster than we can sometimes keep up.

This is the new reality. If you are one of those people who needs to feel superior, then don't buy a Model S until right AFTER an update event. Then you're almost guaranteed to have the newest thing... until the newer newest thing is released. Fact of life, I'm afraid.

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If the upgrade we're talking about had been upgraded seats or an improved sun visor or something else like that I wouldn't be that worried about it. I understand that changes are going to get folded into production. If we were talking about a new option that had been added just after I received delivery I wouldn't feel unhappy.

New cars post Elon's announcement have improved, larger sun visors and vanity mirrors, better padded headliner, the rear door opens wider, and the car has improved sound proofing. This is all per the Tesla blog. There are more improvements than just the D and the autopilot. This is Model S 1.5.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

All this talk of disappointment is, in itself, disappointing.

Well I guess it would be unfortunate if you found disappointed fellow Telsa owners somehow a good thing.

New cars post Elon's announcement have improved, larger sun visors and vanity mirrors, better padded headliner, the rear door opens wider, and the car has improved sound proofing. This is all per the Tesla blog. There are more improvements than just the D and the autopilot. This is Model S 1.5.

The new standard sensors resulted in things like new headliners due to their shape, so it isn't surprising those have resulted in improved parts. Anyway, we all know car manufacturers make small parts changes all the time, Tesla included. Adding a self-driving car as standard is not quite on the same level of changes, though.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I can respect that as your opinion of course, but as far car purchases go, some people getting a self-driving car for free and others not, that seems like a fairly significant level of unlucky - and a real danger of depreciating the cars of those unlucky ones. I have ordered a lot of cars (too many) from factory from the European manufacturers which have rolling model-year and mid-model-year changes (where you can't know whether they'll make your car before or after because the wait times are so long and unspecific) and I have never, ever witnessed anything this major. The level of change in standard equipment in the vehicle exceeds any case I can remember. Sure, I can recall some small trim changes, an improved sensor here and there, small functionality added somewhere, and lucky and unlucky people around the cut-off dates, but nothing as big as, well, a self-driving car being added in rolling production.

I wonder what level of change you would consider majorly unlucky as far as automotive purchases go.

And if having a self driving car was something that someone wanted, wouldn't they have waited to buy a Model S until it was self driving? Those who did that were happy. Those who didn't obviously didn't need the autopilot functionality, right? Because if they did, why did they buy a car without it?

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Well I guess it would be unfortunate if you found disappointed fellow Telsa owners somehow a good thing.



The new standard sensors resulted in things like new headliners due to their shape, so it isn't surprising those have resulted in improved parts. Anyway, we all know car manufacturers make small parts changes all the time, Tesla included. Adding a self-driving car as standard is not quite on the same level of changes, though.

You're right. It's much better! Do you have to comment on every single post?

 

[PokerBroker]

I am so angry at Hewlett Packard because the desktop computer I recently bought from them doesn't have the new processor that Intel just announced, or the extra USB port of the new Model, or touchscreen, or or or or... This is technology, we should be ecstatic that no one will be able to keep up with Tesla's advancements!! Such is the life of early adopters.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I'm pissed that Tesla's stock is down 10% since the D event. Nothing I can do. Enjoy the ride!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

And I think those at Tesla, who are working their butts off trying to do the impossible for all of us, deserve more than they are getting from some. :wink:

Both Tesla people and Tesla buyers can be (and are) deserving at the same time. It is not an either/or kind of situation.

Credit where credit is due - and feedback when feedback is due.

You can read my signature link on Tesla. I think I'm being fair. But I don't just care about Telsa, I care about the fellow Tesla driver as well.

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And if having a self driving car was something that someone wanted, wouldn't they have waited to buy a Model S until it was self driving? Those who did that were happy. Those who didn't obviously didn't need the autopilot functionality, right? Because if they did, why did they buy a car without it?

As Elon Musk put it, nobody expected the magnitude of driver assistance features - let alone the fact they made them standard in a rolling fashion. Adding an option to new orders is one thing, giving some old orders the new feature as standard while not giving it to others, well, that has peeved some people depending especially on their sale interaction. I really feel for that family for example that bought two Teslas delivered one week apart and the wife didn't get the sensors and the husband did. You know, that's just really unlucky. I'm thinking maybe Tesla could have done it a little different. Create some grace period with discounts, discounted delivery refusal options or something like that to smooth such a major cut-off over.

I get it. You'd just rather people shut up and not post how disappointed they are. I'm trying to discuss feedback where Tesla could lessen such reactions by improving their communications and processes.

Do you have to comment on every single post?

Hopefully not.

 

[MsElectric]

I'm pissed that Tesla's stock is down 10% since the D event. Nothing I can do. Enjoy the ride!

Yes, but aren't most stocks down about 10% recently? TSLA stock will be fine and will bounce back. I think one thing Tesla can better do in the future is unless they have something really huge to announce (like unveiling the Model x, Model 3, etc.,) to not tamp up expectations too much... They still have a few exciting announcements coming out this week that will help bring the stock back up...

+ Unveiling of the MX
+ Announcement of the number of MX preorders
+ First P85Ds being delivered in December
+ Activation of some of the autonomous and ACC features
+ Something else...

Good time are to come but I think Tesla can and should learn from this experience. The rollout of the D could have been done better. They could have communicated better with those who have orders in the pipeline about the impending features and they likely should have offered a P85D and a P85D+. Right now there is a big gap in acceleration between the P85D and an S85D.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Having followed stock market (not that anyone following it can ever really understand it) I doubt any of the things that matter to us here on the forums really affect the stock price - at least not in the way we expect it to. High-end product announcements, let alone features, very rarely seem to affect stock price at least positively. P85D-day being surrounded by such a slide is certainly testament to that.

Better than expected earnings/sales figures, major partnerships (say, Mercedes deciding to replace all their ICEs with Tesla-made drivetrains, that would raise the stock price), stuff like significant gigafactory progress and perhaps news on volume products (say, Model 3 coming out sooner than expected in greater volumes than expected), I think those are more likely to positively affect the stock price.

Of course, it is also possible Tesla stockholders are sulking that they missed out on D/A and punished the stock by 10%...

 

[ggr]

I've always been an early adopter of technology if I want it. If I want it at all, I want it now! I bought an HP-65 in my first year at university, for what was at the time an astronomical price, and it served me for three years and my wife for another four, and now it's in a computing museum. I didn't get upset that the HP-45 came out only a couple of months later at less than half the price, or the -35 just a little later. I instead put on a Zen face and remembered the enjoyment I had programming it to do my Chemistry lab calculations, which saved me and my wife time in the long run. I'm very happy with our obsolete non-sport Roadster and our obsolete P85 Signature Model S.

Like some others I'm treating the current funk as market pressure and irrational selling, and using it as a buying opportunity, except I'm running low on dry powder.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

As Elon Musk put it, nobody expected the magnitude of driver assistance features - let alone the fact they made them standard in a rolling fashion. Adding an option to new orders is one thing, giving some old orders the new feature as standard while not giving it to others, well, that has peeved some people depending especially on their sale interaction. I really feel for that family for example that bought two Teslas delivered one week apart and the wife didn't get the sensors and the husband did. You know, that's just really unlucky. I'm thinking maybe Tesla could have done it a little different. Create some grace period with discounts, discounted delivery refusal options or something like that to smooth such a major cut-off over.

I get it. You'd just rather people shut up and not post how disappointed they are. I'm trying to discuss feedback where Tesla could lessen such reactions by improving their communications and processes.

You have an agenda, I do not. If you ordered at the same time as others and they received sensors and you did not, that's a problem and Tesla should fix that. But if you took delivery of your car before the announcement, too bad. You got what you got. New things happen. Get over it. Sorry, but that's life. If you are advocating for those who were in the queue and didn't get the sensors, fine. But if you are advocating for folks who happened to take delivery before all of this happened, then you are totally off base.

 

[cdub]

You have an agenda, I do not. If you ordered at the same time as others and they received sensors and you did not, that's a problem and Tesla should fix that.

That's just not true at all. Tesla had to pull the switch sometime. People were just on the wrong side of the switch. That's life.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

That's just not true at all. Tesla had to pull the switch sometime. People were just on the wrong side of the switch. That's life.

Yes, and Tesla should have pushed the switch after its announcement on 10/9. It was totally irresponsible for Tesla to release features on cars prior to the announcement. The right way is to release changes after they are announced, not based upon a manufacturing lottery. That would have easily avoided a lot of bad will.

 

[cdub]

Yes, and Tesla should have pushed the switch after its announcement on 10/9. It was totally irresponsible for Tesla to release features on cars prior to the announcement. The right way is to release changes after they are announced, not based upon a manufacturing lottery. That would have easily avoided a lot of bad will.

No. Tesla makes changes on the line all the time. They can do whatever they like with their cars.

The bottom line is... you got exactly the car you paid for.

Nowhere in the contract does it say that car such an such has the autopilot hardware. You weren't cheated out of anything.

What are they supposed to do? Shut down the line for a month? That's not going to happen.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

No. Tesla makes changes on the line all the time. They can do whatever they like with their cars.

That doesn't make it good business practice. Whether or not you think people should be upset, the reality is that some customers ***were*** upset. This could have been avoided.

What are they supposed to do? Shut down the line for a month? That's not going to happen.

They don't have to shut the line down. Tesla could have handled this the same way as the Dual Motor feature: announce that the feature is available on new vehicles starting on day after announcement.

 

[DieAbetic]

People will get upset no matter how/when the updates are announced. It's in Tesla's best interest not to give an exact date, because people will hold off on ordering/taking delivery. As an investor, I agree with how they handled the situation.

Everyone got what they paid for. Take a look at your contract/MVPA. Your Tesla came with everything listed on there. If you got something extra, good for you - you should thank Tesla. If you didn't get something extra, good for you - you got exactly what you ordered, you should thank Tesla.

I'm tired of these posts and the petition full of legal non-sense. You signed a legal contract with very precise wording. There is no breach of contract, and I can pretty much guarantee (without really knowing) that no one had all these 'promises' they claim in writing from any sales staff/executive.

Further, anyone who kept up with Tesla on TM/TMC/Reddit should have known more options were coming. We knew months ago about new safety features (granted, not all of them), as well as the potential for AWD on Model S. We also knew that Tesla doesn't announce a head of time when new features will be released. Just because something new has been released doesn't mean you are entitled to a retrofit or a buy-back. Hindsight is always 20-20.

Enjoy your cars exactly how you configured them when you ordered.

 

[mhan00]

Yes, and Tesla should have pushed the switch after its announcement on 10/9. It was totally irresponsible for Tesla to release features on cars prior to the announcement. The right way is to release changes after they are announced, not based upon a manufacturing lottery. That would have easily avoided a lot of bad will.

For the record, I do not yet own a Tesla. I'm currently waiting for my Nissan Leaf lease to expire. That being said, I'm confused by your statement. How is it irresponsible for Tesla to release features prior to an announcement? Why are you thinking in terms of "Some people got screwed" instead of what actually happened, which is "Some people got lucky"? The people who didn't get the new features got EXACTLY what they paid for and what they were expecting when they bought their vehicle. The people who did get the new features got lucky and an unexpected bonus. Their good luck doesn't materially affect a person who got what they paid for. What you're essentially saying is that you'd be happier if no one got lucky than if some people did and you didn't.

I expect Tesla implemented the new feature set as soon as they could for both their own convenience and because they thought they'd be providing a nice surprise to some customers. They clearly underestimated how selfish humans are and how people perceive other people's good fortune somehow as their own bad fortune.