Disappointed with the D unveiling

[brianman]

Technically, it is unfair to ALL owners without the new A-list hardware (what should we call them? "nonsensical"? "desensitized"?... :wink: ), but to varying degrees.

Sorry the A letter is taken. Here are the "taken" letters that I'm aware of:
A, B, C, D: Model S battery discussions and drama. Also D is also taken for [60|85|P85]D.
E: Catch and released name for Gen3 vehicle/platform; release blamed on Ford.
P: Designation of the "performance" flavor: P85. Update: P85 is now bows to P85D, so maybe we should call it p85 (lowercase).
S: Obvious.

You can use some other letters though:
F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, Q, R, T, U, V



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Here's the part I don't understand ... why are the people who got the car they ordered right up to the moment where the hardware changed (and some received the updated hardware during the changeover) being treated as somehow more unlucky then those that took delivery 4 months ago or 6 months ago or any other time?

That's the sticking point for me. If those folks are taken care of, then why not take care of the group right before them (who are now the unlucky ones who just missed the cutoff point)? And when they're taken care of, then ... right.

It's not lack of empathy here. It's a real issue of 'where is the cutoff and how do you justify that?', coupled with 'how the heck is Tesla supposed to cut in a change and advance technology?'.

As an intellectual exercise (that probably needs its own thread), I wonder if the attorney from the Lemon Suit would consider challenging Tesla's "hardware upgrades" description of the Service agreement. A P85D Sig with autopilot would be neat if it was a free upgrade.

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- Equal treatment: Two people order their cars at the same time, one gets more than the other - in this case one gets a self-driving car, the other not. This doesn't apply to the guys who already had their cars for months.

I don't agree that this should be a goal. And, in some case, I think it's impossible due to constraints such as physics.

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Random observation:
Apologies in advance to AmpedRealtor and AnxietyRanger if I mix up your posts in the past, present, or future. Your handles are visually similar (and share the same caps'd letters) so I'm certain I'll be screwing this up.

 

[dsm363]

Order at the same time. Same minute? Day? Week?

You can play this game all day long. Bonnie is right. You'll always leave someone out.

I don't see why someone who waited two months for their car is more deserving of a free upgrade (to something they didn't even order) than Sig customers who loaned $40,000 to Tesla for over 3 years or anyone else for that matter. I don't believe Tesla owes Sigs any free hardware so don't think someone who ordered and received exactly what they ordered (even if someone else who ordered at the same time got something extra) should get free hardware upgrades just because they feel left out.

 

[brianman]

No. Tesla makes changes on the line all the time. They can do whatever they like with their cars.
The bottom line is... you got exactly the car you paid for.

Technically this is incorrect. If you ordered a car before the announcement and got the car with the new sensor package, then you have a legitimate right to ask for a replacement car or have yours retrofitted to remove the sensors for free. I don't hear anybody asking for that, though.

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3. I've been driving a Roadster for >3.5 years and my wife has been driving Model S VIN 00282 for >2 years now. We both agree that the autopilot functions are cool but we would really not use them because a) driving a Tesla is too much fun and b) we don't trust other crazy people on the road.

Only the crazy people inside your car?

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It ceased to be private between you and Tesla the moment you brought it to the Internet. You are as much a catalyst for forcing a reaction on the part of Tesla for PR than the person who started the petition, and the other guy who wants to start a class action lawsuit.

Overstatement. Disagree.

 

[NigelM]

Only the crazy people inside your car?

LOL. My wife often says I'm crazy so she must also be crazy to have married me. OTOH neither of us is bothered about semantics on a car forum....:tongue:

Crazy is the new normal.

 

[breser]

Breser I think you should contact Tesla and explain the situation you are in and try to negotiate an outcome. Maybe you and Tesla could jointly eat the changeover loss and get your current car turned into a loaner and you get back into the queue for another build. I don't think you will set a precedent as you were going to get these features anyway until Tesla asked to bring your production date forward (without telling you the consequences). You were willing to lose the $2500 deposit anyway so maybe it will only mean a little more than.

If this doesn't go ahead at least you know you still have effectively the worlds best car and I'm sure this sting in time will dissipate.

For what it's worth my email to Tesla has gone unanswered in a week. Not even so much as "Thanks for the feedback." I went ahead and asked for a trade value, but I don't anticipate it being anywhere close to something I'd accept.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Order at the same time. Same minute? Day? Week?

You can play this game all day long. Bonnie is right. You'll always leave someone out.

I don't see why someone who waited two months for their car is more deserving of a free upgrade (to something they didn't even order) than Sig customers who loaned $40,000 to Tesla for over 3 years or anyone else for that matter. I don't believe Tesla owes Sigs any free hardware so don't think someone who ordered and received exactly what they ordered (even if someone else who ordered at the same time got something extra) should get free hardware upgrades just because they feel left out.

The disagreement, as I see it, is the level of difference that could be made. Nobody seems to disagree the challenge is real, it seems some people feel Tesla could not do anything significantly different to the end-result - and others disagree.

I sympathize much more with breser than with a Sig owner with a years old car. Similarly I sympathize more with the guy who was just now sold a "current model" from show floor without sensors than with a guy who bought his car months ago.

For the likes of breser, Tesla could have done many things different (discounts, info, chance to not take delivery, voucher for store, some innovative solution...) and that would have lessened the impact. That's the argument of many, I think.

 

[hiroshiy]

I think Tesla could have cared more about international markets. For example in Japan and HK we had the first sig delivery in September and August respectively, and after a month or two we heard about new stuff. Maybe, Tesla could wait at least a few months to reveal anything radically new.

I know there are many things to consider but eventually they will rely on international sales.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Another article on the botched "A" upgrade:

Tesla anger: Recent Model S buyers cry foul over new features - SiliconValley.com

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think Tesla could have cared more about international markets. For example in Japan and HK we had the first sig delivery in September and August respectively, and after a month or two we heard about new stuff. Maybe, Tesla could wait at least a few months to reveal anything radically new.

I know there are many things to consider but eventually they will rely on international sales.

I, of course, sympathize.

That is certainly a difficult question, considering how long transporting goods like cars takes internationally. Certainly it would have been ideal if HK/Japan deliveries could have started off with the upgrades in place, but that may be asking quite a bit. I have personally been more forgiving towards Tesla in the international setting for this reason. I mean, sure it sucks just as much to get an international delivery that is already "old stuff", but improving the situation is harder too.

The likes of breser and Valkyrist were local customers for Tesla and thus fixing things for the likes of them, managing that rollout better, would have been a far more feasible place to start.

It would also have been nice if people just overall would have been more sympathetic towards people who got unlucky this time. Clearly some have been more unlucky than others and it is good if we as a community could show our sympathies rather than belittle such feelings. So, even while I'm not sure how that HK/Japan launch could easily be improved (delaying shipments until AutoPilot could have been one), at the very least I do understand why some have their purchase experience lessened and that's unfortunate.

For Tesla's continued success, our feedback on how we feel as customers and where to improve is valuable, so thank you for that point.

Disclaimer: I am also an "international" customer and with a P85 without new sensors. But my feedback is not to improve my own situation at all (I have no personal complaints), but to discuss and offer what I feel is reasonable feedback to Tesla.

 

[David_Cary]

On the other side of the EV world....Price cuts have created a different kind of angst. A very quantifiable angst. Nissan chopped the price of the Leaf when the 2013 came out by something like 15% and added features (and removed a few). 2011/2012 owners are pretty livid and vocal about their resale value. Now model year improvements are to be expected but a huge price drop was not. The owners lost $6000 that day the pricing was announced and not on a $100k car.

Ford just slashed the Focus price by $6000 - or 15%. And that wasn't a model year.

Tesla is going the other way (as expected) - more features for the same price. If the sensors were a $1500 option, there would be no issue here. But since they are given for free - ie a price cut on the rest of the car - people are upset. And the price cut was random for purchasers too.

The concept is the same. And it will be for years to come. New EVs will be better, cheaper or whatever. Are we chumps or pioneers?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Are we chumps or pioneers?

A little bit of both?

But overall a fair post David Cary. Certain amount of additional risk and faster depreciation is certainly a part of this game. It is, overall, a balancing act with many different opinions of course. Some moves of the market will be prettier and fairer than others.

 

[wycolo]

Originally Posted by cdub:
No. Tesla makes changes on the line all the time. They can do whatever they like with their cars.
The bottom line is... you got exactly the car you paid for.

Or: 'you got at least the car you paid for'.

In the assembly line shuffle some gets freebies and some don't. Tesla needs testers asap, no time to wait.

[not claiming to fully comprehend here]
--

 

[TSLA Pilot]

For what it's worth my email to Tesla has gone unanswered in a week. Not even so much as "Thanks for the feedback." I went ahead and asked for a trade value, but I don't anticipate it being anywhere close to something I'd accept.

Yes, I think that as Tesla grows Elon has had to cede more control to underlings, underlings that are much more of the "car dealer" mindset. This is sad and does not bode well for Tesla's future.

We too are becoming more disappointed with Tesla with every passing day. For our second MS I specifically asked our DS, via email, if we might hold off a few weeks or months as we really wanted the new seats and the upgrades that Elon had been discussing for months. We received an email with standard boilerplate language, " . . . we know of no upgrades until they're publicly announced on the web page, etc."

Not quite true as the upgrades showed up well before the web page was updated.

And, sadly, we later found out from their own web page forums that other customers were told by their DS's to "hold off until October or November production." And they were told this about six weeks before our email from our DS.

Then, literally 3 or 4 days before our delivery we see on TMC that non-Tech Pkg cars are being delivered with the sensor suite at no cost. (Actually, less cost. Our same car would cost $500 less.)

We cancelled our delivery, suggesting they use our car as a service loaner (something they are chronically short of!) and reorder another MS, only to get strong armed by two higher ups who made a bunch of promises to get us to pick up our MS. (Does this sound familiar to anyone who's ever bought a car at a car dealership?)

What a mistake.

Not only is our car a poor replacement for our original MS (partially our fault due to bad options selection compared to MS #1), but then they reneged on their promises (well, all except for one, but even that last one is uncertain).

Now we're in the process of trading in a 3-week old MS and the process has me feeling like I need to take a shower to get the slime off. We assumed that Tesla would try to help us out given the circumstances, based on hearing things like:

"I'm looking out for you."

"We want you to be happy."

But now I feel like a chump.

It's just dawned on me last last night as to why Tesla is being so, ah, peculiar, as we try to trade our MS in on our new MS order--while this is still speculation, it looks like my pocket was being picked while they were trying to "help me" get into another MS. (Details to follow, perhaps. If I go public I'll need a whole new thread to share this story.)

All I need to hear next is, "Let me talk to my manager."

I am so tempted to just cancel our new MS reservation (and our old MX reservation) and just play TSLA as a stock trade. If Tesla continues to hire people with a slimy, car dealer mindset I worry about their long-term future. Perhaps it was child-like to believe there could be "something better" in the car business....

 

[breser]

Personal request if you're willing:
Go through the process of requesting a trade-in offer from Tesla for your current vehicle with a "reasonably equivalently" specced vehicle (other than the D of course). I'm really curious what your out-of-pocket would be.

If you're not willing, that's cool. I'll just cry in the corner.

And for the record, I'm not suggesting you'll like the number -- I'm just really curious what the number would be. Your mileage is pretty low still, I presume.

I ended up doing this and the number was $82,000 for a vehicle with 2,432 miles/23 days in service. I paid $86,820 net after accounting for the $7,500 tax credit. So the difference is $4,820. The same vehicle today would be $86,320 after the tax credit. Which is $500 less. Bringing the out of pocket to $4,320. Unfortunately, Tesla won't give me anything for the aftermarket paint protection or tint. So actual out of pocket costs come out to about $7k. I'm taking the offer.

 

[balabanshik]

I ended up doing (the trade-in with Tesla) and the number was $82,000 for a vehicle with 2,432 miles/23 days in service. I paid $86,820 net after accounting for the $7,500 tax credit. So the difference is $4,820. The same vehicle today would be $86,320 after the tax credit. Which is $500 less. Bringing the out of pocket to $4,320. Unfortunately, Tesla won't give me anything for the aftermarket paint protection or tint. So actual out of pocket costs come out to about $7k. I'm taking the offer.

Well, that gives us a data point, at least. Have you ever heard from Tesla following your letter to ownership? Mine produced no reaction so far, even after I mentioned it in the ownership quality poll they sent to me (I believe these two evens are unrelated).

 

[jstepy]

I ended up doing this and the number was $82,000 for a vehicle with 2,432 miles/23 days in service. I paid $86,820 net after accounting for the $7,500 tax credit. So the difference is $4,820. The same vehicle today would be $86,320 after the tax credit. Which is $500 less. Bringing the out of pocket to $4,320. Unfortunately, Tesla won't give me anything for the aftermarket paint protection or tint. So actual out of pocket costs come out to about $7k. I'm taking the offer.

Hey Breser... congrats on pulling the trigger to get the newer model. I was wondering if you were going to actually do it or not. I too pulled the trigger with my 14 day old P85 and my offer was actually pretty good from Tesla. I didn't bother with the form on the web page and actually called my owner advisor and he got back to me with an offer really quick. I too had to eat my paint protection and tint but I am sure it will be worth it in the end.

Worst part besides the whole waiting game again is going back to the pumps. Just two weeks of avoiding them was pure bliss.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

We too are becoming more disappointed with Tesla with every passing day. For our second MS I specifically asked our DS, via email, if we might hold off a few weeks or months as we really wanted the new seats and the upgrades that Elon had been discussing for months. We received an email with standard boilerplate language, " . . . we know of no upgrades until they're publicly announced on the web page, etc."

What Tesla should have done was keep producing the existing car until the day of the announcement (10/9), then start shipping the autopilot after the announcement and after the web site was updated. They should have treated Autopilot the same way as they treated the Dual Drive. If they did that, which is how it should have been handled, you would still be in the same situation and would still be complaining because something newer with more features came out after you got your car. That's just reality and nothing can be done about that. Asking Tesla employees about future products is silly because anything they say will either be the company line or speculation. You received the company line via email, but you didn't like that, yet you are upset that other DSs offered their customers speculation which could have easily been wrong.

Now you are going to take a loss on trading in your car just to get autopilot sensors? Please don't come back here and complain when Tesla updates those sensors, or replaces them with newer and better ones, or adds a rear radar (currently missing) or any number of things that you may not be able to retrofit.

 

[Vitaman]

Tesla employees are sometimes the last to know.
I emailed my Sales guy late this afternoon about how I changed my interior color as soon as the options became available on the "D" this morning.
That was how he found out about it!

 

[Chuck P85D]

this thread is still a thing?!

 

[BlueTan85]

this thread is still a thing?!

Ha, you beat me to it. I saw this listed at the top of "What's New" and thought, oh yeah, that D event.... I was there, I attended, and even I forgot about it..... I guess TMC has not...