Disappointed with the D unveiling

[Vger]

I just watched the live feed of the revealing of D. I have to say, D looks awesome.

I could have sworn that Elon had hinted a few days ago that part of what was being unveiled was something that current Model S users would be able to upgrade to. Perhaps I read wrong. He didn't make any announcements (at least in the live feed I just watched) of anything that current Model S owners would be able to upgrade to/retrofit... Has anyone heard different?

Jeremy

I believe this was meant to refer to the two-weeks worth of customers (1,500-sh?) whose cars were built in the past two weeks and who got all the sensor hardware without asking for it.

Lucky ducks indeed.

 

[alexucf]

If people were ordering again, would they still buy the RWD version? Or has the D become a must have?

I'd still buy the RWD, but the new sensors would be worth a few grand to me.

I think we'll see a shift in the next handful of years to cheaper insurance for cars with autopilot-ish features. Similar to how when airbags came out.

 

[tga]

They're a battery company. They pick cell mix, take the cells produced by a cell manufacturer, package them up into a battery and manage the batteries. Panasonic will be their cell manufacturer at the Gigafactory as well.

Even if they don't make cells, they are still manufacturing batteries! You don't have to make transistors to make a computer.

Touche. It's been one of those days. You would think an EE would know the difference between cells and batteries. :redface:

- - - Updated - - -

I understand the annoyance. But it is inevitable that some people will end up with new features they didn't pay for and the rest will end up with exactly the features they paid for.

Tesla cannot pre-announce when the new features will be incorporated into the cars because that would freeze new orders and cause huge production problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

 

[breser]

Go through the process of requesting a trade-in offer from Tesla for your current vehicle with a "reasonably equivalently" specced vehicle (other than the D of course). I'm really curious what your out-of-pocket would be.

I may ask for that after they respond to my concerns about how this went down. But I don't think there's anyway this can make sense. Working through some numbers.

I ordered options that are exactly possible to duplicate (my fog lights are rolled into the tech package and parking sensors are base now).

I know that I paid $94,435.75 out the door (order cost - HPWC cost + title and registration). I paid $2,660.08 for paint protection and tint. Take out the $7,500 tax credit. So I have $89,595.83 in the vehicle right now.

A new vehicle should come out to $93,820 + $115.75 (title/registration) = $93,935.75 (or $500 less). Add in the paint protection and tint and subtract for another $7,500 tax credit for $89,095.83 total replacement cost.

I believe people have said their retail formula is -$1k per month and $1k per thousand miles on the car. I've had the car less than a month but let's round up to 1 month and I have around 1800 miles on it but let's round up to 2k, making their retail markdown on the car $3k. Let's subtract out title/registration, the tax credit and the value of the sales tax after that. Let's assume that Tesla gives me nothing for the paint protection and tint. So starting with what I paid $94,435.75 - $115.75 (title/registration) - $7,500 (tax credit) = $86,820.00. Sales tax on that in Seattle (where you take delivery and I believe the highest rate) is 9.5% or $8960.40. Subtract that out and you get $77,859.60 for a sales price to a retail customer for Tesla just to bring them equal with ordering new and with a very small reduction for mileage. Let's not worry about what Tesla actually gives me but assume it's something less than that.

That brings my best case out of pocket cost (assuming that Tesla resells the vehicle for what they paid me) to $11,236.23.

All I can say to that is ouch.

- - - Updated - - -

I believe this was meant to refer to the two-weeks worth of customers (1,500-sh?) whose cars were built in the past two weeks and who got all the sensor hardware without asking for it.

Lucky ducks indeed.

Nobody is paying for the sensor hardware. All cars are getting it. Though it seems some of the software uses of that hardware may only be available to those with the tech package. As has been mentioned in the other threads, I'd imagine the safety features are going to everyone and the convenience functions are going to the tech package owners. Anyone that ordered the parking sensors before last night is paying $500 for a feature that everyone is getting, unless they start retroactively disabling it in cars without the tech package.

Edit: I predict a bunch of people with orders that include parking sensors and tech packages start seeing people without the parking sensor option getting it and start getting annoyed at the extra $500 they paid. Past experience on this forum and elsewhere is that Tesla won't remove that $500 charge. So I'm betting there will be a bunch of annoyed people with parking sensors soon.

Edit2: To be clear I'd gladly have eaten my $500 for parking sensors to end up with the new sensors over getting a car without the new sensors.

 

[SR22pilot]

I disagree strongly. Tesla can pre-announce new features. They just did it with the AWD feature. They just had a huge opportunity when they shut down the factory for 2 weeks and then started producing cars with these features not too terribly long after that to announce a new feature. There is a penalty for canceling your order (which is what you'd need to do if your car wasn't coming with something like this), you lose your deposit. If you don't care about a feature you're not going to cancel your order. If you do Tesla ends up making money for delivering nothing. At worst they end up with an inventory car that they can probably sell to someone that wants a car now (and doesn't care about whatever feature it's missing).

I really do understand why people are upset. I have a very good friend in your situation. I am struggling to think of how it could have been handled better. I suspect Tesla had parts supply reasons to slipstream the new components into production. However, they could have added a setting that would prevent the new hardware from ever being functional. That way you would be in the same position but those who got the new hardware would have it never be functional i.e. they would be in your position rather than getting something you didn't. Only people ordering yesterday evening or later would have the features functional. Would that have made you happier? That's a serious question. It effectively makes Autopilot a pre-announcement equal to dual motor. The problem with this is that all of the orders for October and November delivery potentially get cancelled. As it is I wonder if the dual motor announcement is going to cause problems with a large number of cancellations. There have already been several people post that they cancelled and ordered the dual motor version.

The only gotcha in all this is it means that Tesla needs to build cars roughly in the order they are ordered. That means they can't pick and choose cars to make to minimize their in-transit inventory at the end of the quarter (and thus maximize their numbers). I find it absolutely crazy to see people who ordered in June getting their orders after people who ordered in August just because the live on the East Coast and the other people live in the West Coast of the US. It does not take 2 months to move a car across the country.

I doubt any of this behavior has to do with production requirements and everything with making their numbers look better.

I suspect it has everything to do with maximizing efficiency and trying to make the company more profitable. Tesla has big plans and they need profits to make them happen. The guy running production is no newbie and understands lean manufacturing.

 

[breser]

I really do understand why people are upset. I have a very good friend in your situation. I am struggling to think of how it could have been handled better. I suspect Tesla had parts supply reasons to slipstream the new components into production. However, they could have added a setting that would prevent the new hardware from ever being functional. That way you would be in the same position but those who got the new hardware would have it never be functional i.e. they would be in your position rather than getting something you didn't. Only people ordering yesterday evening or later would have the features functional. Would that have made you happier? That's a serious question. It effectively makes Autopilot a pre-announcement equal to dual motor. The problem with this is that all of the orders for October and November delivery potentially get cancelled. As it is I wonder if the dual motor announcement is going to cause problems with a large number of cancellations. There have already been several people post that they cancelled and ordered the dual motor version.

Yes I'd have been happy if the feature had been pre-announced. I'd have had a choice. Eat $2,500 or take delivery earlier. The current situation presented no choice for me. I got whatever some computer or person at Tesla decided I would get. I might have even just decided to take delivery and not worry about the sensors. But at that point it would be my decision and I wouldn't feel like I got the short end of the stick.

To give another example. I decided not to order the black headliner because I don't like the idea of suede. After getting my car I realized that I'd probably prefer to have taken a black headliner than a tan cloth headliner. But that's not Tesla's fault and I'm not in the slightest bit unhappy with them.

As to having the hardware on the cars and non-functional vs not on the cars doesn't help anything. People with the hardware would complain and Tesla would probably offer to enable it for a fee. People without the hardware are still in the situation where it can't even be retrofitted (which I understand and am not complaining about).

 

[Gizmotoy]

I suspect Tesla had parts supply reasons to slipstream the new components into production. However, they could have added a setting that would prevent the new hardware from ever being functional. That way you would be in the same position but those who got the new hardware would have it never be functional i.e. they would be in your position rather than getting something you didn't. Only people ordering yesterday evening or later would have the features functional. Would that have made you happier?

It may or may not make him happier, but it's certain to anger the people who have literally all the equipment necessary for the new features but are being punished for giving Tesla money too soon.

 

[SR22pilot]

Yes I'd have been happy if the feature had been pre-announced. I'd have had a choice. Eat $2,500 or take delivery earlier. The current situation presented no choice for me. I got whatever some computer or person at Tesla decided I would get. I might have even just decided to take delivery and not worry about the sensors. But at that point it would be my decision and I wouldn't feel like I got the short end of the stick.

Review what I wrote. There was never an ability to cancel prior to receiving your car and reorder. You were never in the position to cancel and reorder for the dual motor. You had your car before the dual motor was announced. Similarly, you had your car before autopilot was announced since both autopilot and dual motors were only announced last night. So what if others hadn't gotten any hardware yet or their hardware was permanently disabled? You would be in the same position you are now and they would be worse off; but you would be happier despite no change from your present situation. No matter when new features are announced there will always be someone who received his car the day before the announcement. I don't see any way around that. Do you?

 

[Doug_G]

I don't know why anyone would be disappointed in the D event. They launched exactly what I was expecting them to launch.

Figured on a 3-ish second AWD car - check. In fact being in the low 3's is really awesome.

Figured on Auto Pilot - check. In fact the Auto Pilot is even cooler than I expected.

Anything else was just the forum doing its usual over-hyping thing.

 

[Blue in NC]

Just to add another perspective: I can understand why people are a bit annoyed but IMO this is part of the risk you take when you order (or wait to order). In the same way, some people did not get in before the price increase (last year I think) and had to pay more for the same car that someone received a few weeks prior to them or before the cost of the sound system or the moonroof were increased dramatically. So it can work both ways. Again, I can understand feeling a bit annoyed but IMO Tesla is not doing something terrible here. Personally, I am kicking myself for not pulling the trigger last year as my configuration cost has increased but some of the sting of the cost increases will be taken by the benefits of some new features.

 

[tezco]

If I ordered again I'd still order RWD. I took a long hard look at my needs were before ordering, decided I didn't need AWD. I see no reason even with the $4k price tag (on my configuration) to order AWD.

For me, the advantages of AWD in the S are:

1 No (or significantly less) cut in power during hard acceleration (due to traction limitations of RWD.)
2 More even tire wear.
3 Extended range (at least for the S).
4 Winter driving.
5 Better handling (from ability to shift power back and forth from front to back).

I would be inclined to order AWD over driving assist if the budget was tight.

 

[SR22pilot]

It may or may not make him happier, but it's certain to anger the people who have literally all the equipment necessary for the new features but are being punished for giving Tesla money too soon.

I don't see any way to keep people from being unhappy. There are certainly people who just received their cars yesterday and would love AWD. I can think of scenarios which make people currently unhappy much happier but every scenario I have come up with just makes a different group of people unhappy.

 

[Michael M.]

I'm going to throw my two cents in on this as someone who just took delivery on 9/11/14. I have very mixed feelings on this issue. I ran into someone at a Supercharger last Thursday on 10/2 who took delivery just two weeks after me and his car had the new sensors because he had the tech package (just like me). I had a two-week delay in getting my car because of the factory retro-fit and shutdown. If I had been given the option of waiting just two more weeks for my car to have this kind of an upgrade to the tech package installed, I would have absolutely agreed. My bigger problem is that I was told by Tesla representatives that when new tech is available for the Model S it is easy to have your car retrofitted. That is why (as the Tesla rep explained) that Tesla doesn't have model years.

I am extremely happy with my Model S85 and I had planned on keeping it for many years. Now however, I may end up taking Tesla up on the guaranteed trade-in value in three years just so I get an upgraded version then. Perhaps this is part of Tesla's plan.

 

[freds]

I used the design studio to order my car in AWD configuration and it came out to be almost 25K more. While I would love the fire breathing performance and would immediately order it if I came into some windfall.

I wonder how well the autopilot does in rush hour traffic, especially the changing lanes behavior? To be able to zone out and let the car handle that is also most priceless!!

 

[SR22pilot]

I am extremely happy with my Model S85 and I had planned on keeping it for many years. Now however, I may end up taking Tesla up on the guaranteed trade-in value in three years just so I get an upgraded version then. Perhaps this is part of Tesla's plan.

If it isn't part of their plan it should be. Longer term there will need to be a more vertical end consumer market. People of means get tempted to trade up for the new goodies. That is enabled by a CPO program which then sells a used but warrantied car to people of lesser means who eventually pass it further down. If Tesla builds the same vehicle year after year they will eventually get passed by.

 

[svp6]

I used the design studio to order my car in AWD configuration and it came out to be almost 25K more. While I would love the fire breathing performance and would immediately order it if I came into some windfall.

I wonder how well the autopilot does in rush hour traffic, especially the changing lanes behavior? To be able to zone out and let the car handle that is also most priceless!!

I think this is not a fair statement. p85D is the extension of p85+. When you compare with that, it is ~ 5-6 k more (you had to chip in for the performance + at 6500 and leather seats -now included- at 1500-2500). Thus 14.6-6.5-2.5 = 5.6k

 

[lodenthal]

I have no regrets for having the last two years with my Model S. We are going to get a Model X when they come out and expect that many of these features will be available for the X. I wouldn't trade my Model S for this and don't really feel that I am not getting a fair shake.

 

[SteveS0353]

I just don't get the complaining! If you buy a 2104 Mercedes and the 2015 turns out to be way better, do you complain that they should give you the features they added for 2015? The only real differences are that Tesla doesn't have model years and that they don't pre-market a lot of what's coming. If they did, they'd freeze sales for months on end or have to discount like regular car companies do at the end of the model year. Am I annoyed at my lack of driver profiles? Yeah. Do I wish my seat was comfier? Sure. Do I think Tesla "owes" me these things or even the right to retrofit? Heck no! The fact that a few things have been added hardware wise to my car and that the software has increased the functionality and drive ability of the car is way better than any other car company has ever done for me. One day I will trade for a cooler, newer version. Until then, I will enjoy the one I have!!

Hear hear!

 

[green1]

It is a real shame that so many people on here want to hold back progress, not so that they can have a better vehicle, but so that nobody else gets one.

I don't have even the slightest bit of sympathy.

Did you pay the dollar value you agreed to on the website? Did you get the vehicle the website promised at the time?
If the answers to both of those questions are yes, you have zero right to complain just because someone later on got something better. To do so is equivalent to complaining that the first person to buy a motor car shouldn't have been allowed to because you just bought a brand new horse-cart.

You have zero right to dictate what someone else should get. You have zero right to complain that you didn't get what you wanted when you agreed to the purchase.

Quit crying, suck it up, and enjoy your car.

 

[breser]

To do so is equivalent to complaining that the first person to buy a motor car shouldn't have been allowed to because you just bought a brand new horse-cart.

False analogy. A horse cart is not a motor car. The more apt analogy using your items would be you buy a horse-cart from the company and the guy next to you is given a motor car instead of the horse-cart he ordered and he paid the same as you. Surely that situation has never happened.

Quite frankly, I don't think anyone who isn't in this situation of missing this stuff by such a narrow margin can possibly understand how it feels to be in the situation.